Podcast Ep. 12 - Confessions of a Courtroom Probation Officer Featuring Guest Fabiola VanOtteren

Welcome back to Come Back With A Warrant Podcast.I'm Brandon Denitz.And I'm Monica Schack.Before we kickstart this week's episode, this is your reminder that this podcast is not legal advice.It's real, unfiltered, and for entertainment purposes only.If you need to speak with a lawyer, call oneSo for this episode, we're joined by Fabby Van Otteren, who served as a probation officer for 10 years, rising to the role of Assistant Manager at Professional Probation Services.Throughout her career, she managed 150 to 200 individuals on probation at a time, working tirelessly to make the process less intimidating and more supportive.Fabiola is, ah, highly respected by state attorneys, judges, public defenders, and private attorneys alike for her fairness, professionalism, and ability to adapt to every personality she encountered.Our guest had the honor of serving alongside nearly all the judges in the 15th Judicial Circuit.And in fact, she was the probation officer in the very courtroom where Brandon and Monica were assigned as opponents.Her work offered her a front row seat to both the challenges and the rewards of the justice system, and she remains deeply proud of the impact she made and the lives she helped guide during her time in probation.So please welcome Fabby Van Otteren to the show.Hi, guys.How are you?Hi.How you doing, Fabby?I'm good.You know, just living life.Also- I'm not stressed out as much as I used to be, butYes.No, and that's definitely something we will talk about, the life of a probation officer.Yes, yes, it's very fun.Um, yeah.And we're so excited that you're here because you're the first link between, like, Brandon and I to join us on the show, so it's super- I know.We had good times.Yeah.Yeah.Super special guest.Um, but we discussed prior to, um, talking to you and your about your journey and how you got to be able to sit with or be in the courtroom with so many different judges and your journey as a probation officer, we should first discuss what probation is.And oftentimes, when I talk to people about probation, I always get the question, "What's the difference between probation and parole?"And we're gonna talk a lot about probation, and just simply put, probation is a community-based sentence, right?And it's something that can be split with a jail sentence or prison sentence, or it can be purely the sentence.Then there's parole, which is abolished in the state of Florida.We do not have parole.And parole is something that you may be eligible to get after you serve majority of your prison sentence, and then you go before a parole board, you ask to be early released, and then you can serve, you know, like, 15 or 10% of your sentence out in the community.So Florida used to have that.We do have some stragglers left on parole, but this episode is not about parole, it is about probation, and so that's why we have Fabby here.And we're so excited to talk about all the different stories that you have because you- I have many.started talking about them.Yes.And I was like, "Oh my gosh.We gotta save this for the show."So before we get started in those stories- Mm-hmm.can you tell us a little bit just about your journey and how you got to start working for probation?Yes.So let's go way back.My grandfather was an attorney, so I feel like I was born into, like, doing something with the criminal justice system.I wanted to be a police officer.That was my dream, and then do 2 years of that and do a, be a detective or SWAT.I know that's crazy.That's intense.But that's what I wanted to do, but that was when I wanted to be single and not have any children and just live my life.Then I met my husband, and that all changed, and I had children.And I'm like, "Well, I don't really wanna do that and die and get shot."Yeah.So I was like, "Okay.Let's not do that."And my friend actually at the time was working at PPS, and I was working at a civil attorney, a de- like, law office, I guess.I did not like it 'cause it was civil.I didn't know anything about civil.And so she was like, "Come over here."So I went over there, and 10 years laterLinked.Linked, and I had my 2 children there, and that was it.And now I don't work there anymore.I've been removed almost a year and a half, but- Yeah.I do miss it.Yeah.I do miss my clients.My clients were my, my babies.And you're saying clients, those were the people on probation?Yes, ma'am.And now I work with my children at their school.Yeah.And now I'm, like you said, in my mom era.Yeah.I love that for you.It's like you're, like, not retired, but you've retired- Exactly.your PPS days.I have lots of time off.So you said PPS, but for people who don't knowOh, sorry, Prof- uh, Professional Probation Services.Yeah.And that's what we call it here in Palm Beach County.Yes.Not necessarily in other places.Right.And that's something that I wanted to address.In Palm Beach County, for county court, Professional Probation Services is the supervisor of probation.It's a private company.In other jurisdictions, you don't have a private company that supervises probation.You could have the actual, you know, state or county supervising, especially for felonies.You have the Department of Corrections, the state is supervising probation.So it is a little bit unique that in Palm Beach County, our county court is supervised by a private company.And that's something that we brought up because, you know, when our clients are paying probation supervision fees, that's not going to the state- Government.Yeah.That's going to a private company.And, you know, there's benefits to having a private company in place to do this role, but there's also negatives because you have a private entity that now has an awful lot of power over an individual.Because one thing that, as a prosecutor, we're taught is probation is really in lieu of going to jail, and that means that this probationary period, you need to be doing everything correct that you need to do in order to stay out of jail.And that's a huge part of probation, is basically tiptoeing that line and staying as clean as possible, and it's not a necessarily easy thing.Probation is not always designed to be easy, but certainly thethe, the reason I was bringing this up was I wanted to just kind of point at the process of how somebody on probation actually would get to Fabi.Yeah.Right?Well, when I met Fabi, you were in the courtroom, so, and so there's differentI guess you can explain this better than me- Mm-hmm.because I really don't know, but there's different roles within PPS.Yes, there is.And when we met, you were the probation officer assigned to a certain division in the courthouse, but there are other roles.People are not working in the courthouse, right?Yeah, that's true.Uh, we have probation officers in the office, which that's how I started.I was just in the office, and then you get promoted to go to court.Okay.And then other than that, there's not really any place for improvement.But you can als- be an assistant manager.You can also go to the Del Ray office and, you know, handle that office.But yeah, when I first started, I was just a probation officer.I did not go to court unless I was, you know- Okay.summoned to go.But yeah.And you would have to testify maybe in those situations.Yep.But then when you go to court and you're assigned your caseload, you're managing, like, the violations of probation- Yeah.or people who have alleged violations from the people in the office.They file the necessary paperwork, it goes through the court system, and then it gets to your desk as the probation officer in the courtroom.Yes, exactly.Okay.When I first started going to court, I was in 2 courtrooms.Geez.Then it proceeded to 4.Oh, my gosh.Then when I wasWhen I left, I was at 3.Yikes.So I was in 2 at the main courthouse and one here- Yeah, and-at the North County Courthouse.And, like, people who don't really know what that number looks like, that's probably, definitely over a thousand cases, right?Yes, yes.DependingWell, I would only deal with, well, whoever went on probation, the violations of probation, the motions for, you know, travel, the motions for buyout, community service, motions galore.Yeah.LikeYeah, to early terminate- Yes.to waive fees.I file them all the time.But you were doing double duty because yourIf I'm not mistaken, oftentimes when you were in court addressing a violation, that was not necessarily your specific probation, correct?So you had- And you had to remindSorry to interrupt you.Yeah, no, no.You had to remind the judges a lot that, "This is not my case."Right."I'm just representing the violation of probation."And some people were like, "Well, this is yours."I said, "I understand it's mine, and I can do as much as I can, but it's not mine."There was a retired judge that would do that all the time.And there would be, like, issues with communication because there's this software that I, I don't know what it is- Mm-hmm.but the person at the desk or whoever is monitoring- Yeah.or supervising the person that's on probation would notIf they failed to put something in the system- Exactly.and, you know, defense counsel, this happened to me oftentimes- Mm-hmm.whereNot with you, but just generally, where I would say, like, you know, "I have it here, and they gave it to probation.They told me they gave it to probation."So now I always tell my clients- Mm-hmm."Keep copies, keep copies."Because if- I would make copies for my clients.Yeah, exactly.You never know.Exactly.And there's justIt goes through so many different hands- Mm-hmm.andBut, you know, what was, what was it like in terms of beingPrior to going to the courtroom.We'll get into the- Mm-hmm.all the crazy courtroom stories.Yeah.Because I know you have good ones.But what was it like whenBecause you're saying my- you were, your clients- Mm-hmm.and so it sounds like you grew to have a relationship with these people- Yes.that you were supervising.So what was it like when you were notPrior to your promotion, when you were still at the office?It was basically almost the same thing, just now I have less time in the office.So my caseload went a little bit down.But when I was there, it was justI didn't want them to come in and feel like they were bad people.'Cause some of them were like, "Oh, this is, you know, the worst thing."And you can tell the BSers by the people that are like, "Oh my gosh, this is, like, the worst thing that's ever happened to me.I am such a bad person."It's like, no, people make mistakes.Yeah.The story I always tell them, "I can go to Chili's, have a 2forone, even though they're watered down-" Mm-hmm." someone crash into me-" Yeah." and they smell it on me, who's gonna get a DUI?"That's right."I'm gonna get one."So it doesn't make you a bad person.People make mistakes.Mm-hmm.Now if you're here 3 or 4 times, my speech is a little different.Mm-hmm.It's like, "Why don't you give me the $10,000-" Yeah." that you're just"You know, like- Mm-hmm.you're flushing it down the toilet.This is your 4th DUI.That's 40 grand.Yeah.It's very expensive to be on DUI probation.Like, no, it's- Oh, yeah.It's like, ugh.You're like, it's, it'sEven if it's your first violation- Why are you here again?Yeah, exactly.Oh my gosh.And you've probably seen so many different situations come into play with, like'Cause you were saying, you can identify the BSers- Mm-hmm.and the people who don't.Yeah.So what was, like, a common thing you would see?Maybe, I don't know if I should say this, but they haveYou know, we tried to make them pay the 50 bucks.I don't know how much it is now, but when I was there, it was 55.I think it's 55.55.So, they would come in with like, you know, monster drinks and whatever and wouldn't pay.And I would be like, "Stop drinking those and pay your probation fee."$25 a month."I don't have any money and I don't have any"And they have like Louis Vuitton bags and- Yeah.all this other stuff and I'm likeSo a person is in court.They're accused of a- of a crime.Let's say for this purpose it's a DUI, and they have entered a plea of guilty or been found guilty after a trial, and now they are sentenced and in part- part of their sentence is probation.So they are now placed on probation for a set period of time.In county court it's generally a year or under.And they have a list of conditions that are set out.Now, these conditions are set out by the legislature sometimes, especially for like a DUI.They're set out by the prosecutor.They may be set out by the judge if the judge is the one making the decision and saying, "This is what your sentence is gonna be."Those conditions are laid out, and then there areAnd those were- are considered the special conditions of probation.And then there are more general conditions of probation that anybody on probation needs to abide by, and those usually are travel restrictions, usually, you know, no firearms, don't get arrested, sometimes there's a curfew, et cetera.But in order for the person to get from the courthouse to, in this situation, Fabi, at probation, they have to be placed on probation officially by a judge after a sentence, and now they are going to see Fabi and they are saying, "Okay, I have a list of conditions that I have to complete.You're the person that is going to tell me, A, how to complete them, B, make sure I'm completing them, and C, if I'm not completing them, you're the first person that gets me in trouble in this process."And that's huge and that is so much power, because now you are bringing in a person who is not law enforcement, who is not at the state attorney's office, who is not a judge.And this person does have the power to put you in jail ultimately, and that's huge.And especially when you're talking about it being a private company, that creates all sorts of levels of chaos and concern.But point being the person is placed on probation.Now they show up to Fabi and they say, "Here's my paperwork.I got a list of conditions.What do I need to do?"And that's in part the paying of the fines like you were- Yes.just talking about.That's one of those conditions.Something else that everybody always thinks about is the drug tests.When you're on probation, one of the conditions of probation generally is that you are not to possess or consume drugs or alcohol, with, you know, exceptions made for medication, but you are subject to drug testing at your own expense.Mm-hmm.Okay, I'm done now because I've- I've spoken a lot.What I wanna get at is I wanna hear some really, really good- Can I have- can I tell you-fucking excuses for- Yes.failing drug tests.I have- I have a whole bunch.All right, 'cause I'm just- I just gotta hear it.first, I'm gonna talk about- Okay, first I have to talk about when I was pregnant with my daughter, Emily.Hi, Emmy.Um, this one guy, don't remember his name but I wouldn't say it anyway, he had a fetish of pregnant women.Wow.So every time that we had to do a drug test, he would be like, "Can you come in with me and hold it for me?"And I was like, "Absolutely not."For a second I was like, "Hold what?"Yeah.And I'm like, "No."Hold the fake urine sample you brought with them.Yes.So I was like, "No.""There is no way that I'm doing that."Then there was this other kid who was his first time ever taking a drug test and decided to take a selfie with me without me knowing.But I saw him, you know, do the little selfie thing and I was like, "What are you doing?"He's like, "I've never had one.I just wanted to document the moment."And I was like, "Well, you can't document it with m- me in it.""Like, you need to erase it."So I made him erase and then erase it 'cause you know it goes to like the garbage.He was like, "I was just so excited."I'm like, "How are you excited about a drug test-" Oh my gosh." when you're in trouble?"LikeThat doesn't make sense.Did he pass?Yeah, he passed.Ah.Then I had another 1 then I had another one that had the machine and you- you know, like the little string or whatever, and I saw it like hanging from- Like an ankle monitor?No, no, no, no.No, like a- like a- You need to explain exactly what you're talking about.Okay.So- I'm like, "What are you talking about?"'Cause we have a lot of people that are listening and not watching, so you have to explain- I don't remember what it's called.The urinator?It's some sort of device like that.Or something like that, yeah.Oh, okay.I see.And they have like a fake penis.Or they have like a bottleMm-hmm.that they put here and there's like aAnd it expels whatever they need it to expel.So I'm- I already know he has it 'cause I can see, right?So he's like fumbling in there.I'm like, "What are you doing?"He's like, "Nothing."And I'm like, "Whatever you have, just give it to me."And he's over there and, you know, he didn't pull his pants up, know.And so I'm like, "Just give it."And I was like, "Now- now go to the bathroom."And of course- He failed.he tested for like everything.Yeah.I'm like, "You just had a cocktail of drugs."And I'm like, "You must be flying high in your head."So that was anotherThat explains why he was stumbling.Yes.Then we had this other lady who was in a walker.So when they're in a walk- I'll- you know, I'll go in there.I desensitized, likeYeah.It doesn't bother me going in there.So I went in there, she did her business, she came back out and she fell.Oh.And you know why she fell?Because she was drunk and on- Oh.Oh.and on some other drugs.And she's like- Oh."Well, my friend gave it to me so I can feel better."And I'm like, "Are you kidding me?No."Fail."You're done, lady.I know you're like 80."But likeThose- those were the worst, when it was like an 80-year-old on probation and there was a violation of probation.Like, really judge?You're gonna put an 80-year-old in jail?Yeah.W- well, I went through that too.Yes, they will.They absolutely will.That's why they will, butOh, no.We can talk about that later of, like-people that should not have been on- Yeah.probation that literally I cried in front of the judge, but we can get to that a little bit.Oh, my gosh.Yeah.Like- I- I mean, if you wanna talk about it, he like, he, he passed away.He had stage 4 cancer.He was like yellow.That sucks.And I tried to like waive everything, and one of the state attorneys was like, "No."I don't even remember his name, but I can picture his face.Yeah.He's like, "No."I'm like, "This guy is literally going to die."Yeah, like probation who?Like, "Can we just take him off?"And he's like, "No."And literally 2 weeks later he died and left like- That's sad.4 girls.And I'm like, "No, that's not right."Yeah.Like, "Put him on and then, like, come back in a week.We'll do like a fake violation, he never showed up and then-" Yeah, just take it away from there.Yeah." take it away if that's what you wanna do, if you wanna do it the legal way."Yeah.But I'm like, "Come on, like, you see him.He can barely walk."Yeah.Like that's not, it's not right.But that's, like, there's a whole bunch of people that should not have been on probation.Yeah, probation I always felt like was a trap.Sometimes when I would receive it as an offer for certain types of cases.Mm-hmm.Obviously certain cases they're like mandated, like DUIs, but especially as a public defender, you know, more so because, you know, people couldn't really, like we were saying to you.Afford it.Yeah.DUI probation alone is very expensive.Retail thefts, don't put them on probation.Exactly.Right.Like what they couldn't afford.What not, so they're gonna steal-so they can pay for it.Yeah.Make it make sense.Right.Yeah, exactly.Like- Situations like that were- Yeah.like unnecessary.Yes.I had a prosecutor once tell me that she, I wouldn't take a, uh, probation officer- Mm-hmm.probation offer if she wrapped it in a Louis Vuitton bag.So I was like, "Well, you know what?"She said you wouldn't take it if she wrapped it in a Louis Vuitton bag?Yeah.I think she just didn't know what caseShe just needed the right case.Yeah.Yeah, I was like, "Yeah."It's a hell of an offer."I think you're just offering it on everything."Yeah, well that's- No, thank you.Yeah, it's just there's a lot of things that I saw that I'm just like, "I don't think that's right."And I was a hard ass, like, I could be and then I was like a softy.Yeah.But it depended on the situation.Yeah.You had compassion for people.Yes.So- So it's like retail theft, they're not gonna- Yeah, it didn't make sense.They're not gonna come.Prostitution, they're not gonna come.Yeah.Like- Well, they may.A little bit.So before we get into violations, because we're gonna talk about your discretion- Mm-hmm.in choosing- Mm-hmm.to violate and when you do not have discretion.There is some- We never have discretion.Really?We never have discretion.Okay, I see.We never- You never.have discretion.You never have.Well, okay.Well, we're gonna talk about this.Yeah, we'll talk about your lack of discretion.Yeah, exactly.But when it comes to violations, there is technical violations and substantive violations.And, you know, technical violations are usually, or I should say substantive violations are considered willful and material violations.So, you know, like failing a drug test.Mm-hmm.Picking up a new law violation.Yeah, picking up an arrest.Even if you're found to be innocent of that, it's still considered- Just the, just the getting arrested again is, is, could be a new law violation.Yes.And when you get a violation of probation, the process of that, you know, you would end up getting a no bond warrant because you're not entitled to bond.So knowing that information- Mm-hmm.obviously as a probation officer and, you know, someone who had the power to violate somebody, when was it, I guess in, in, in your practice, in your way of supervising people, how, when would you choose to not violate people?Sorry, guys.So if they would test positive for marijuana, let's say it's'Cause they usually sometimes they'll say like, "Don't test them within 30 days."But it's like the 35th day or the 40th day and then you test them and then they're positive.And I'm like, god."Yeah.I'm like, "It might still be in their system or they might have smoked within those-" Right." 3 weeks or 4 weeks that it was."So I'm like, "Okay, well, I'm gonna test you again next month randomly-" Okay." sometime and if you're positive, you're gonna-" Violation.Like I, I can't do this.Okay, that's pretty fair.Like, yeah.I mean, I wasn't supposed to do that though.Yeah.Yeah, and that's- That's like the California sober of- Yes.drug testing.Yes.Basically, it's like- It's like you get one freebie.You get kind of like a- Mm-hmm.like a, if your first one comes back dirty forIt was, I mean, I imagine if they were coming back dirty for meth on the first one, you were not- No.No, no, no.It- It was probably just- Strictly weed.just the marijuana.Strictly marijuana.Alcohol, you're out of here.Yeah.Cocaine, you're done.Yeah.Yeah.I, that- Because you know that those are in your- Cocaine lasts 3, 3 to 5 days in your system.Exactly.Gets out of your system quickly.But with marijuana, I think there's even research that supports- Yes.for 40, 45 days even.Yes, something like that.So that's fair.Especially if they, you smoke every single day.Sure, th- it's, it's fair.Yeah.So.Yeah, yeah.And another- And you were, you had to deal with people getting marijuana cards and then that- Yes.playing a factor because that wound up being, uh- And it was less work for us, honestly.'Cause then we didn't have to violate them.Yeah.But that would be exactly, the way that it's handled now is the marijuana card is no different than a Xanax prescription.Prescription.Mm-hmm.It's the same thing and it's, you have a prescription for it and you can't be violated on probation for it.Exactly.I remember I always, always tell my clients, like, "If you smoke weed, go get your a la- go get your card."And it's easy.Yeah, it's so easy.Go, just go get your card.It's like, my friend just went to go get one.Sorry.There's peo- I'm not gonna mention your name.I won't mention your name.But she just went to go get one and- 2 seconds.it was like 2 seconds.They didn't even ask her anything.Yeah.You know?I mean, if you- So I was like, "Okay."Yeah.Just to be- That's good.just to be safe to have that is not a bad idea.Yeah.No.I meanI have more stories about drug testing.Yeah.Yeah.Sure.There was this one kid, he tested positive for cocaine and he said, "Well, it's because my roommate left it on the table and I went like this with my hand and it got in my pores."And I'm like- Ah.I've heard that excuse.Sorry.Sorry, guys.Because when it comes in for the violation and you're asking me to ask the judge to release you- Yes.or whatever.He, if he, the warrant wasn't executed and you want me to ask- Mm-hmm.for a modification of bond, what do you want me to tell the judge?Yeah.Like, what am I telling the judge?Yeah.I'm gonna be like, "No."Okay.No bond.Exactly.Or a high, really high bond that he can't pay.No, I would- Yeah.never do that, no.No.No.I would just say, "No bond."I mean, it was, that's the law.It's not even- I know.like up to you really.It's just- But-what your-like I was telling you before, there was a judge who stopped court and he's like, "Madam Probation, come"You know?And I said, "Okay."He's like, "Well, what do you, what bond do you want me to put here?"And I'm like, "Your Honor, that's, that's on you.I can't tell you what bond to put.I can ask you for an NTA," but back then there wasn't NTAs.This was like when I first, 5 years in.And I'm like, "I can't tell you what bond to put.Like, you have to do that."Why do you say back then they didn't have NTA?W- NTAs are Notices to Appear.Yes.We didn't have those for probation cases until, like, I don't remember what time, I mean, what w- year it was, but we could not request an NTA.What?So that's, thatFor those of you who don't know, if you request an NTA instead of asking for a warrant for someone's arrest when they violate probation, you can ask for a Notice to Appear so that they're just required to appear in court to address the violation.Right.That's- Mm-hmm.more so on- Like the technicals.the technical violations.Yes.And technical violations, we're talking about costs or, umYeah, that's pretty much it.Really pretty much it.I mean, like, costs or- Sometimes I've seen community service as a technical.Yeah, it depends.If they've done other things.I mean- Yeah, it depends.And it also depends on the judge 'cause we can- Mm-hmm.ask for it and they're like, "No."Yeah, that's true.Right.And it's like, "But it's only 25 hours of community service.Why are you giving this person a no bond?"Yeah, exactly.But they're like, "Well, that's what I'm"It's because- Okay, I wouldn't fight with them.Okay.Yeah.I would just say my piece- Yeah.and okay.Yeah.'Cause I- And you learned all of the quirks of each of the judges that you practiced- Yes.in front of, right?Yes.And you would be in front of these judges for longer periods of time than the prosecutors that were assigned in there, than the public defenders that were assigned in there.So, you saw tons of people cycle through.Yes, especially Brandon when he wanted to put everybody in jail.I did not want to put everybody in jail.He's like, "No community service, fines, jail."I'm like- I can't tell."You can't do that.""Get out of here."I was like, "No,so funny.I was like, "No."Literally when you said that before I was like, "I do not recognize this person."Early days.That's what, like, when you first- That's how a lot of- No, what, what were you called first?I forget what judge- Oh, by, uhI'm not gonnaThat judge is still on the bench, so I'm not gonna say that, but- No, no, no, no, no, no, no.Like, your title 'cause you weren't a, a state attorney yet when I first met you.Oh, when I was just like- CLI?Yes.Yeah, yeah, yeah.Oh, okay, okay, okay.I was, like, support staff- Yes.basically- Okay.for the state attorney's office.Yeah.So we, we- 'Cause I didn't have my CLI yet.We, like, it was like brother and sister.Oh.I was like, "No, you can't do that."And he's like"I'm gonna do it anyways."Oh, yeah.I, I wasI was like, "No."He ended up learning by the time I got there 'cause I did not get that experience with Brandon, thankfully.I was pretty, I was fair.Yeah.Tough but fair.Yes, he was tough but fair, but in the beginning I was like- I think-"Dude."yeah, a lot of prosecutors aren't like that though.Bruh, as the kids say, don't do that.Exactly.Yeah.A lot of prosecutors come in and they just, I don't know, if they wanna prove themselves, maybe Brandon can tell us.But- I didn'tHonestly, I thought that that was part of the- Yeah, maybe you generally, yeah.the gig was that you needed to be tough and that you needed to, you know, be tough at least by the book at the very beginning when you're just learning it all, but there's so much more that goes into it and the, there's a human element that goes into it.There's being reasonable.There's the understanding that you're gonna be practicing- Mm-hmm.in front of this judge with these other lawyers on the other side.A lot, like, there's a lot of things that you don't start to factor in when you're first getting into, into the profession.Mm-hmm.Yeah.And especially as a young prosecutor, like, all you know is you have all these cases.You have an immense amount of power that you never had before and you just wanna make sure you're kind of doing the right thing.Yeah, exactly.But, like, yeah, I mean, it's, it's good that you, you know, you're not wielding life sentences at that stage.Yeah.You know, that'sRight, obviously.Like, if you're having a bad day and you're like, "Fine, you're gonna get 5 years."No, I would be like- Well, from what?Right.Yeah.But probation officers do that too.When they first start, they wanna violate everybody.I know, and then- And it's like, you can't do that.Like- Do they do that to get less case, cases on their desk?Probably, just so they don't have to worry about seeing that person, you know, if- 'Cause I have some clients that are on probation- Mm-hmm.and they'll be like, they have just not a good relationship with their probation officer and I'm like, "No.Make sure you're on their good side."I don't know if this is true, but as true as my truth.Okay.I never got not one complaint.to my boss- About you.about me.Yeah.That's, that's honestly, that's a big deal.I think that's a probation officer.Maybe from some attorneys and some judges- Yeah, but whatever.because I was kind of r-But- Yeah.other than that- Those weren't the people you were dealing with every day.No, no.Yeah.Yeah, no.'Cause I, I was always like, "This is what you have to do."Like, you know, they would come in and like, all slouchy and- "I'm not gonna do anything."I'm like, "Okay."And by the end, they loved me and we were like BFFs.Best- yeah, besties.But we nev- I never hung out with them.No, yeah, yeah.No, you're not getting my number.Just besties in that.We're not gonna be BFFs.Don't look me up on social media.Like, one of them asked me out on a date and I'm like, "I'm married."LikeYou didn't, but you didn't doDid you do house calls and, and things?Yeah, I was gonna ask, did you show up?So you didn't have to show up and doLike, the Department of Corrections, the felony level, those probation officers are showing up at houses, at jobs, at like- Yes.They have to carry a weapon.We didn't haveWe don't have to.Okay.Yeah.And you- But- But you didn't show up at those places.No, but if they had maximum supervision, like animal cruelty cases, or I forgot what other case, my boss would have to go to those places and make sure they didn't have any animals.Mm-hmm.And I forgot what other cases.But it was really rare.I mean, IShe probably did that twice ever since I was there, so it wasn't,'Cause thenNot FWs.There was another person that would go and see if they haveLike, the county itself would go to the re- Like animal t- animal control.Yeah.Would go to those places and then report to us that- Oh, wow.But yeah, we did have cases that they would have to go to the, to the house.But other than that, no, they would come to us.And how often would you, like, see them?It was a monthlyOn a monthly basis?It was once a month, unless they had like, you know- A s-biweekly testing- Yeah.or whatever it was.Then we would see them more times.And it would be random, so you would call them and tell them- Yes."Hey, come into the office now."Mm-hmm.What did th- What wasYou ever make one of the phone calls where you picked up the phone and you're like, "Hey, uh, you have a random drug test."Mm-hmm.And you just hear someone, "IShit!"Like, "Oh, no!Oh, no!"Yes, yes."I can't make it right now, I can't get out of work."I'm like, "Well, it's either you get out of work and you come and take your test, or you don't get out of work and you get a violation and you might get jail time."Man.I mean, you gotta make your decision here.Pick your point then.Like, probation is your f-Like, it's a gift, I think, instead of you being in jail.So, you have to treat it like that.Like, you don't wanna be in jail?Then do what you have to do.Exactly.Mm-hmm.Because when you violate- You know?And I would- That is the alternative.Yeah.I will, I will be- The alternative is jail.I will help you as much as I can for you to make it.But if you don't help me, I can't help you.I think a, a big part of the problem is that not everybody has that outlook from probation side.And so, their caseloads are high, and they are eager to violate people and maybe not be so willing to work with people.And as a result, if they're giving people grace- Mm-hmm.they're having to kind of deal with that issue themselves.Yes.And people don't want to do that.Because it's a job they don't get paid for.And so they're like, "Bye.Violate."Yeah."You're gonna have to go deal with the judge now.You're gonna go to jail now."And then they come back, and then your client is going to not like you anymore and not respect you.And then there's a- Right.then there's this back and forth between the two, and it's justBecauseAnd you're saying they come back- Mm-hmm.Because there's something called reinstatement.Yes.You can get placed back on probation.Even though you were once violated.And then it's just an awkwardAnd you're like, "I don't wanna do that."Like, if you're just likeAnd then they come back and you're like, "Yeah, back at, back at it again."And they're not going toAnd it's something you have to deal with for like, at least like probably another 6 more months.Exactly.Well, 'cause otherwise, if it was close to the end, it would be a terminate, you know, whatever, unsuccessful.Yeah.Unless it was tolled.That's another story.Yeah.Mm-hmm.The tolling cases are likeYeah, having to do a lot of math- Mm-hmm.in those situations.HavingAnd then they're like, "What do you mean I have 6 more months of" Well, we'reNothing happened with your violation of probation.Yeah.And then you got reinstated, and then they backtrack it, and then- What?Right, 'cause as soon as the violation hits, the actual period of probation stops.Yep.And you're not getting credit for whatever is going on.Exactly.So you're just racking up tolled time- But-and then the clock restarts.But when they violate, I tell them, "Keep doing your conditions.Don't just stop."Yeah.Right, right.Because then you're like- "Keep doing it, 'cause you never know if you're gonna come back."Right.So don't like, notJust pretend you're still on.Don't do any drugs.You know, just go to your treatment."Yeah, that is good advice.Go to yourBecause it's notBut some probation officers don't do that.Yeah.They don't, you know- They often-look out for the person.Exactly.That's not the mindset.Where they're gonna be placing them, fix themselves.Yeah.Right.It's like, is this the police or is this my friend?People go, don't really know what to expect going in.And you are, I think, one of the fewer people that do this.That's, or did this- Mm-hmm.I should say, 'cause you're not in that role anymore.Um- No.I miss you guys.Yeah, and we miss you.But, um, in terms of yourI know we were talking about, like, different styles, and we have, I don't, I, I don't know if you wanna now transition to talking more about your role and your job- Yeah, this one?Mm-hmm.in the courtroom.So, what was that like?'Cause I know you were talking about, like, preparing your dockets- Mm-hmm.and stuff, so every, every day, there's a set amount of cases in front of a judge and, you know, you would basically be the person to represent, like you said, whatever probation's position was on specific issues, but you also didn't know when you would get new people on probation.Yes.Well, oh my God, I'm gonna sound really bad.I never missed a person on probation.I had a list and I would, like, this person didn't show up, let me call the attorney, let me do this.And I would, like, if you don't get this client in here, they're gonna get violated.Like, I always would go through every single one of my things, every single case, didn't matter what it was, just to make sure they didn't go on probation.Unless it was, like, an MO.What's an MO?Municipal ordinance.The- then I wouldn't even, 'cause they don't go on probation.Then they don't go on probation.Yeah.But, so I would get out of work at 4:30, right?6:30, the docket hits.I would s- get, go to my room.No one would bother me.They knew from 6:30 on, 'til I finish, I have to do this.I would go through e- each case.I would go to the file, go to the computer, make sure everything is scanned in.If it's not scanned in, I would, I have a scanner at home, I would scan everything in, make sure that everything was copacetic, right?That would take hours.Yeah, it sounds like it.So it's like, I'm at work again, so I literally only had, like, maybe an hour to cook dinner, to, you know, make sure my kids were doing their homework, you know?And then, I would just- Back to it.because I really took pride in my job.My phone was never off, I answered every email, I answered every text, which is good and bad- Yeah.because then it's like, "Well, Faby's gonna know the answer, let me-" Yeah." go to Faby."And everybody went to Faby, Faby, Faby, Faby.Mm-hmm.And it's like, it's fine, you know?Like, it's draining sometimes- Yeah.but I would not not give you an answer.Yeah.I would try to find it.So, then the next day, I would get to court at 7:00 AM, did my rounds, make sure, you know, talk to the state attorney, talk to, you know, the public defenders, "What do you wanna do with this case?"Da da da, and then jump from this courtroom to this courtroom, to this courtroom, to this courtroom, and make sure that I didn't miss anything.SoHow was that managing what you were preparing for the next day- Mm-hmm.and taking on new probation people in the courtroom?Because you have to, like, sign them up, you have to get their information, right?In here at North County, yes.Oh.Okay.But in the main courthouse- Yeah.there's a room that they go to.Right.Right.And, um, I would make sure that they actually make it to the room.Like, I would be like, uh, "Are they there?"You know, "Where did they go?"And I had a good rapport with most of the attorneys.Yeah.I was like, "Please make sure that you go up there.Please make sure that you take them there."I always escort my clients, yeah.Yeah, I'm like, "Take them up there.If you can, take them up there.If not, just make sure that they get there."And, you know, some attorneys didn't care.No offense to you guys.Yeah, no, I mean- But some attorneys were just like, "Oh, case closed, I'm done."Mm-hmm."Here's the paper," and leave, you know?And it's like, "You can't do that."And the clients have to wander in the courthouse.I don't even know- Yeah, and they're like, "Where am I going?What am I doing?"Well, in the courtroom we were all in, it was literally next door.Yes.So I'd, I'd literally be like, "This is the room you're going in."Yes.So I'd walk in.Yeah.But there would be sometimes, depending on how many doc- I would sign them up myself in the- Oh, wow.So he would be saying the conditions, the judge, and I would be doing the probation order.That's what they have to sign, that this is the conditions you have to do, uh, so I would be doing it while they're getting sentenced.Yeah.So I would try to do that, Wow.it was- That's a lot.It was a lot.It was a lot.It was fun, but it was also very stressful.But I put that stress on myself- Because you loved it.because, yes- Mm-hmm.'cause I didn't want to, like, miss anything.Yeah.I didn't wanna not know a question.I did not not wanna know a answer, I did not wanna know, like, I would always try to have an answer for the judge.Considering what you wanted to do- Mm-hmm.is this, like, what is, is, was PBS what you expected, expected in terms of, like, the justice system?'Cause you were like, "I wanted to be in law enforcement, I wanted to be "Well, I would, I thought that I would've been, like, one of those cops that would get in trouble on body cam.Because, like, I always thought, like-I would be, like, such a hard-ass person, like- Yeah."No, youThis is the rule and this is what you have to follow," and it, but probation made me see, like, maybe you don't have to always be that way.Yeah.They know there's little things that people are going through in their lives.Not all the time, 'cause there are some POS people out there.Yeah.But yeah, I think it's way different than what I actually wanted to do, because I just wanted to be like, "You're a criminal, let me arrest you," and you're done and, you know, "You're garbage.You're the, you know, the most garbage person because you got arrested."It made me see, like, the other side of, of people.Would you say you like the fulfilling part of the job?Yes, especially when they were like, they would graduate probation.I'm like, "Yay, you made it, woo hoo!"Yeah.You know, now, and I would always say this, and hopefully I don't get in trouble, but I don't work there anymore.Um, I would say, "If I see you here again, I literally will kick you down the stairs."Like, "You're not allowed to come back."and some people would come back, and I'm like, "Seriously?"Oh my God.LikeHave you supervised the same person more than once?Yes.That's crazy.How did it end up that way?They requested me.Oh.Yeah, we'd have also.That's hilarious.Yes.She's like, "They wanted me, duh.""Yeah.You want the same one as last time?""Yeah, that'll be nice."That's hilarious.AndSo, it makesI mean, if thatThey requested you, that means you guys probably had a good relationship before.Yes.So it was easy to- Yeah.do it, but you're probably like, "WTF?Why are you back?"I am like, "Seriously, dude?"Yeah."I don't want you to be back here."Yeah.Like, come on.It's like, I, like, love that much.You didn't learn the first time.Yeah.No, they don'tWell- You didn't learn the second time.So- You didn't learn the third t- That'sThe other thing isSo, people talk about probation like it's something that's, like, goes hand-in-hand with re-entry.Mm-hmm.And I wanna talk about that.Do youDo you think it, do you think it is?Like, do you think that it, it sets people up to, like, re-enter society if they were once in the system or were incarcerated, let's say- Some.they had a split sentence?Some- Ho- Some, not so much.Yeah.BecauseI mean, just because we had misdemeanor cases doesn't mean that we didn't have felons.Yes.Or past felons.Yeah.Or people that are also on felony probation while they're on misdemeanor probation.True.That's another thing that probation officers need to realize.You don't knowLike, well, they do know because we have the rap sheet, like- Mm-hmm.you know, the cases that they've had in the past.And one of my last people that I had was a murderer.He was in jail for 12Or prison for 12 years.And, you know, we were very cool, whatever.I mean, he keeps getting arrested.Yeah.I still see him on the, on the thing.I check sometimes just to see if my old clients are, like, gotten arrested, but I'm like, "Come on."Yeah."Can you, like-" It's like, why can't you stop?" do you just love to be in jail?"Yeah."Is that what you like to do?"But I always tell the probation officers, "You don't know who you have in front of you."Like, we've had a case, it was on the news, well, 2 of them, that the guy killed his ex-wife and they found her in the closet with, like, ice bags all over.Oh, no.And he was on probation for a domestic and she went to go pick him up at the jailhouse and- Hmm.he killed her that day.Oh my gosh.So- Yeah.again, you don't know who you have in front of you.Yeah.The other guy that shot someone after Boca Bash, I think it was, Boca Bash, he had a girlfriend but she already had somebody and they got in a fight and he shot him, like, in the ear or something.So it's like you don't know, you can't- Yeah.be wanting to be toughie and they come back and murder you.Yeah.Like, you can't, you can't doYeah.You have to, likeMm-hmm.Do you find that probation sets people up for success in the community?I think so, yes, for the most part, because again, like I said in the beginning, there's people that make mistakes.Right.We all make mistakes, we're not perfect, and those people are like, "I'm never gonna do this again.I'm gonna get an Uber this time.I'm, you know, I'm not going to go behind the wheel-" Yeah." even if I had one drink."Yeah.DUI probation is really justFlorida does not play- No, they do not play.No, it's a lot of conditions and it's expensive.It's very expensive.Yeah.And once you get in trouble for one and then another, it's like license issues, like you have to try to get your license back and like- Oh, don't even get me started with the ignition interlock.The insurance.And the therapies and theWell, therapies.That'sSee, that's the other thing, it's like- Like-how many times do they have to do DUI school?Like, are you really gonna make them do DUI school again and again and again and again?Yeah, they make them do, like, even if it's their 4th one."Level 2 again."Yeah."What are you talking about?"They're not learning anything new.No.Like, it doesn't make sense.WellWhen you would have, umWhen you would have a docket in court and there would be violations, but they were violations that were under someone else's supervision, how would you decide what to offer in those cases?Like, what you are comfortable with in terms of requesting for jail or whatnot?It would depend on what the violation is, what kind of drug was it, did they just not do anything on probation.Like, if it's, like, community service, fines, 'cause fines are a lot, like sometimes- Yeah.Depending on how many DUIs, it's like $4,000.Yeah.They can't pay that.Then I would be like, "Can we reset it so they can finish?"Like, I would reset it as many times as I can.I used to love that.So, likeSo they can finish.Yeah.So they can get a, you know- Yeah.terminated successfully.Because oftentimes, like, even with Batterers Intervention Program, and I think DUI school does this as well- Mm-hmm.you do not get your certificate even if you do all of them- Exactly.unless you pay.They have to waitYou have to pay and then you have to wait until all your counseling, "counseling," is done.Exactly.Right.Which there is some counselors that should not be 'cause why does a person have to go 42 times- Exactly.to the same class?Well, that's a- And it's a private- That whole thing is a rip-off in itself.It's a private business.Yeah, that's a- So they're incentivized.That's a rip-off.They get evaluated- Mm-hmm.and then they're told, "Okay, your recommended treatment is 42," let's say, and then you end up having to pay for those sessions.So the person who's telling you, they know that you're court ordered to be here.Yes.And they know you are gonna have to complete it, so they do take advantage- Mm-hmm.of the fact that- Yes, they do.they're making money off of that.Yes, they do.Yeah, they definitely find out who's sitting in front of them and then decide how many sessions there are needed to pay any- The lowest number I saw was 8.The highest was like 42.Right.I, I agreed.I've seen 8, I've seen like 21- But I'm not gonna go intoYeah.and it's like- I'm not going into the racist shit, but- Where are you getting that?Yeah.you know, it depends on- Wow.what you look like.Yeah.In all honesty.Oh, yeah.I imagine that and what your ZIP code is- Yes.and everything else.Yeah, because you- Because they wanna make money on that.They wanna make the money.Yeah.And then you're making them fail.So I would still- Right.I would still ask for termination successfully.Be like, "But you have to finish this if you ever wanna get your license."Right.Like, you know- Yeah.like I'll be like, "Okay, if he does 15, can we, you know?"Yeah."Yeah, that's fine."Close it out?Or we would ask for twice a week, even though it's like a whole lotta money- Right.but you wanna get it done fast so then you can stop coming to court.Right.There was this one time that we terminated a client successfully and he came up and he hugged me.Like he grabbed me and hugged me and the deputy's like, "No."And I'm like, "It's okay."He's like - That's so funny.It's like he's like thought he was like attacking me and I'm like, "It's fine."Yeah, yeah."It's fine."Oh my gosh.Yeah.So, okay.So talking about courtroom stories- Mm-hmm.'cause I feel like we're getting there, do you have like, what are yourI'm gonna ask, I was gonna ask for like 5 Mm-hmm.but I feel like 5 is a lot.I, I have 1000.I know.Um, what is your like top 2, like craziest courtroom Okay, my top 2 is he had a violation of probation, but he also was on trial for murder.He didn't want to be in court anymore.He was tired.He's like, "I wanna go back to my jail cell."And he decided to defecate where he was sitting so he can leave.And this happened in, uh, well, I can't say.I can't say the name.Did, did she- But it w- we worked in the sameIt was a male judge.Okay.And, uh, yeah.It was- How did, how was that handled by the deputies?Like literally what are they gonna do?Like- Exactly.They just have to get him out, like, like- He's like, "I know how to get out of this situation."Yes."And I know how to do it now."He literally, he literally did it and then he like has to walk by everybody- Oh.and everybody's like, "Oh."That was like the main, the main one that I can think of.I have, like you just reminded me of- Mm-hmm.a situation where I just, it was actually in that courtroom where it was like my first, it felt like my first day as a public defender.It probably was within the first like 2 months.This is not a probation story, by the way.But it is like a bodily fluid- Yeah.story.So it's on table.And this woman was in the back of the courtroom and I swore I felt like that was the same situation.Mm-hmm.She just didn't wanna be in court.No.She was like in the back, it was a packed courtroom, y- and you know that courtroom is so small.Mm-hmm.Oh my God, back pew, making these like gagging, vomiting noises and like- Mm-hmm.basically wailing in the back of the courtroom because she's so uncomfortable.And I was not barred yet, so I was just like kinda there as support to the attorneys.And they were like, "Go," and she was a PD client, "Go help this woman.Take her to the bathroom."She was like an elderly woman.I escort her to the bathroom and then I leave her.I come back like maybe 20 minutes later to check on her- Mm-hmm.because I think the judge was calling her case.And I walk in the bathroom and the stall door is wide open.She's sitting on the toilet screaming and also like making fake vomiting noises, but like very, she was very uncomfortable.Mm-hmm.And I was just like I, this is like my first day as a public defender, like twitching.Like, "What is happening?"But people do, but people do a lot of things like to get out of jail.Moms would bring their kids.Yeah, that's like- And that was the worst.that's the worst.It happened all the time.That was the worst.And I'm like- "You're not gonna get out of this."Yeah.Like, I'm sorry, this ju- especially like one of the judges like, they don't care that you brought your kid.They will put the kid in DCF, and why would you wanna do that to your kid?Yeah.Yeah, that's horrible.They bring their kid, or I don't know.They, they do like such weird things- Yeah.just to like, you know.But I do have a probation story- Okay.which is when we were in, um, that same courtroom.Mm-hmm.And there was somebody that chose to, or they decided to go on DUI probation and obviously you get tested on DUI probation.And they did the Breathalyzer in the courthouse in the probation office and violation.Yeah.Judge.Yeah.Well, that's not, that's not typical in a sense that when somebody initially goes on probation, they're generally not tested that same day- No.because there's kind of a 30-day grace period, as we were discussing.But this person showed up to enroll in probation in the courthouse and was exhibiting- They could smell it, yeah.enough indicators of impairment that they tested her with a- Yes.a Breathalyzer right then and there.Mm-hmm.Yeah.Yeah, and you know, prior to that, you are in front of the judge answering a bunch of questions under oath that you're, you know- Yeah, that you're okay and now you just lied.Yeah.And then it's like we have this reader and it's like, "Oh, no."Yep.Thankfully it wasn't my client.I was, butYeah, we've also had people test positive for drugs- That same day.in court.Like, you know, there was a judge, well, I can say because she's retired, Judge Cunningham.Like she would be like, "Go test her.Go, go test him."'Cause I'm like, I can see it.Yeah.How does their attorney not see it?I'm there like, "This person is high out of their mind."Yeah.Like, we would have, we would have- It's, it's a very uncomfortable position.It is.It is.I was in that position unfortunately within the last few weeks- Oh.where I was asked to approach by a judge and the judge asked me if I was, had any concerns about the sobriety of my client.Oh my goodness.And I did not, and I had a client who just had certain mannerisms about them, but, um-That was an awkward position.And I also don't wanna be wrong.Yeah.Mm-hmm.Like, I also don't wanna be like, "Did I miss- Check if everybody's doing something?did I miss something that they're doing?"Yeah.Like, and everything was fine.The, and the person then rolled in probation and everything was fine.But that's a terrible position to be in.Yeah.Yeah.I, I had a judge once call me up to the bench to tell me that my client smelled like marijuana, but that was it.That was the end of the discussion.I was like, "Okay, Judge."So do half the people back there.Yeah.I'm like, they- I was like, "Cool."you know, they get rides from friends and their friends are doing it in the car.Just 'cause I smell like it doesn't mean I'm doing it.Yeah.But it also gives a suspicion that you might have done something- Oh, yeah.you're not supposed to do.Go to the amnesty box.You would get a certain, you would get certain strong whiffs of s- of smells- Yeah.when you were, like had a big full docket and people in the- Yeah.in the courtroom would come in.No, the, the courtrooms always smell like weed.Yeah.Yeah.Always.Especially in the back.Or the lobby when they decided to actually take out the weed and just smoke it right in the lobby.I've seen that before.So it's like- Well, that's, that's bold.Yeah.And then the, the, uh, deputy would be like, "What are you doing?"Like, seriously?Or cigarettes, weed, cigarettes, vapes.I've seen people vaping in the courthouse.Yeah.Yeah, and it's like- It's like you gotta beYou're, you're outta your mind.I've seen, umWell, we have the amnesty box in- Mm-hmm.Palm Beach County.I don't know if every, I don't think every courthouse has that, but that is- I would have to imagine most- I don't think so.Maybe not.I don't know.Because I, I never see it.Maybe I just don'tThey have it somewhere else, but- No, it's by- But, but FYI.it's by the, the, um- Security.Once you go- Yeah.When you first walk in to security.It is like a little box on the side.Right before you go through security.But I don't, I don't know where it is for, like, the normal people that go in there.No.Because on our side- I just, I wanna see somebody returning to it."Excuse me, I put something in here-" Yeah, you're like, "I need it.I need it back."" when I got here and I wanna get it back on the way out."It's like, no.It's done.It's an 8th.People hide drugs in the bushes outside- Yeah, they do.Yeah.I've seen people in the bushes, like, looking for drugs before.Yeah.Or their beer or their whatever.And it's, it's definitely not weed that those people are looking for in the bushes.Or a beer.That's pretty- Yeah.That's a good one.Leave a beer just out in the bushes.Yeah, it's always in, it's always in the little bag.Before I left there was, you knowFentanyl is the, the thing now.Yeah.So there would be a lot of like, "Uh."Oh my God.And it's like- No.how do you even lie?I had people passed out in court, yeah.Call and be like, "I can't make it because of whatever."You know?Yeah.Like- Yeah, anything.Mm-hmm.Well, now we have Zoom, so it's like just, "Join Zoom, please.Don't even bother."Don't evenYeah.But then they're in bed.Oh my gosh.That alwa- alwaysOr in the bathroom getting ready for work and I'm like, "You're still in court.Just because you're on the TV isn't."Like, "Get out of the bed, put some clothes on."It's, it's so embarrassing.And it's like, seriously?Oh, this one time, I don't know if you were still in that courtroom, but a person wore a shirt that says, "Only God can judge me."There you go.And the judge was like, "Really?Well, I'm the one that's up here."Yeah."So I'm judging you."Oh my God.Yeah, I don't even have to tell you who that was.You know who that was.Yeah.Or that came in with a $4,000 Chloe bag and wanted community service for fines.That happens a lot.And it's like, "I have the same bag."Like, no.Oh my gosh.Yeah, no.Yeah.You have a private attorney and you have a $4,000 bag.No.Or how could you leave your child in the car and go to Rooms To Go?Rooms To Go is so cheap.And then the person left is like, "I don't even know why I said that.I have Rooms To Go furniture."I'm like, "Oh, God."What?The judge, yes.You put- Like, "You're gonna go to that crappy store," and then she was likeWell, let's not name names, but she was like- Oh my gosh."Why did I even say that?I have Rooms To Go furniture.""All my furniture is from Rooms To Go."And it's like, well, you were trying to make a point.It's fine.Yeah, yeah.But yeah, we had good times in there.Yeah.And you've definitely seen different sides of judges, for sure.Oh, yeah.I've seen the good sign.I've seen, like, the, "Whoa, let me not piss you off," sign.But I mean, I think the only one that ever got mad atProbablyHe passed away, but Judge EC.Yeah.But it was only the one time.Yeah.Yeah.He got mad at me a few times too, so it's all good.But pish-posh.Yeah.It didn't bother me.Yeah.I mean, especially, like, you see the judges and how they are with, like, other attorneys.Mm-hmm.Mm-hmm.And like, you're like, "I already know."You already- Yeah, I already know they don't like you.Yeah.So I'm gonna do it my way.Yes.Yeah.And they're like, "No."Okay.Fine.Oh my gosh.Oh, my gosh.That's fine.There was, like, a handful that I could notYeah.There was no way that I would everWhatever they wanted, I would always go the other way.Oh my God.Like, "Oh, you want that now?Oh, you want"No.'cause they were like soThe first time I ever went to court, I was so shy and so scared.I felt that way too.Well, she's retired, so Judge Cunningham.And I would be in the, in the corner.And then they'd be like, "Madam, probation.""I'm here.""Come here."By the end I'm like, "All right, let's-" Yeah."Can we call these cases?"Yeah.You're, like, calling them out.Like, "Page, page 3."1, like, "Let's go."But in the beginning, I was so scared.So nervous.Yeah.I was like, "I do not wanna sound dumb."Yeah."I don't want"But then there's this attorney that came up to me and he was like, "You need to smile."And I'm like, "I just met you."Like, "Do you want me to walk around like this the whole time?Like, that is insane."He's like, "Well, you need to smile.That would get you, get you further."And I'm like- "I don't like that.""I don't like you."Yeah.And that was it.That was the goodbye.You can understand the roles and the people involved here.It doesn't matter whether or not you like him.Yeah.Like, you just need to make sure you're not violating his client.Yeah.Yeah.That's really the only thing that that person should be caring about.It's like, be nice.Yeah.Yeah.That's all I'm asking you to do, is be nice.And if you're not gonna be nice, then I'm not gonna be nice.Yeah.I mean, that's it.You ab- you don't owe them anything.There is, there is a few that don't like me.You're like, "I'm okay with it."I'm g- I'm good.You don't have to like me.You don't ever have to like me.It's fine.Oh, my gosh.Yeah.Because I felt like sometimes they would talk down to you.Yeah.And it's like- I've seen that."Can we just have a conversation?"Yeah.And then you don't give them what y- they want and then, all of a sudden, you're the bad person.Yeah.Mm-hmm.You're the B word.You're like, "Whatever."Yeah.It's like, "Well, I'm sorry that you feel that way.But now you're gonna suffer because I'm not gonna give you what you want."Yeah.Yeah.That's the- And it, like, I didn't wanna be that way.Yeah.But they made me that way.Yeah.Well, I mentioned before, like, with, whether it's probation or even the state, like, as a defense attorney- Mm-hmm.I'm never going to wanna piss them off, 'cause I ask them- Yeah.for things all the time.Right.Whether it's for this client or another.Exactly.I'm not going to, you know?Not burning bridges.I mean, f- with state attorneys, maybe the last few years I had, like, one that was like, "No, these are my cases and I do it the way that I want to."Yeah."That's fine.We don't ever have to talk.You do whatever you wanna do."Yeah."And you'll represent probation's position, like, whatever?"Yeah.Just whatever you wanna do.Yeah.You like to try to get on the same page as them- Yeah.I, I-to move things along.I told them, I'm like Switzerland.Yeah.Unless I'm, like, really passionate about it, then I'll be like, "No.We're not doing that."Yeah.But, you know, I have to get along with all these people.Yeah.I can't just be a hard ass all the time.Yeah.Especially like, I know w- the state needs so- to do something and I know PDs have to do something.Like, they're trying to do their best for their clients and state attorneys are trying to do their best for the state.Right.And it's like, it's hard.Yeah.It was hard at times- Yeah, because it's like Yes.to get to that medium of agreement.I think that's the hardest part of our job.That is part of probation.Mm-hmm.I mean, if you see your job the way, in the way that you do- Yeah.it is a part of your role, and I think it's like bringing everybody to the table.It's like, "Okay, how can I get state to be happy and my client to be happy-" Yes." and set them up for success?"So it's definitely not an easy role.Or, like, you know, what I also told probation officers, like, "Don't tell them they're not gonna get jailed, 'cause you never know."True.How about if we don't know that they picked up a case in California and then they go to jail?Yeah.Or they did something'Cause I had a final one time that I didn't know my client was going to the casino across the street.Yes, there's a casino across the street, and there is a liquor store right next door to the probation office, and he would go there after-probation and get drunk.At least it was after.I didn't know that.Well, after the appointment.And the appointment.Yeah, after the appointment.So I didn't know that he was doing that, but I don't know how the state found out that that'sAnd I'm like, "Well, I'm sorry, dude, now you're gonna have some jail time-" Yeah." because people are seeing you over there drunk-" Oh Right." at the casino."So it's like- Lots of snitches.Yes.Yeah, really.They really took advantage- There was a lot of snitches.You don't-of probation.I always tellWell, I always told my clients, "You're gonna know who's really your friend and you're gonna know who reallys- cares about you while you're on probation."So people's close to people- 'Cause people will call in.Yes.People will call in violating on other people.They were calling, "I was with such and such at a bar and they were drinking."You need to test them.I knew that happened.Yes.I knew it, because I have had clients before that have told me that- It wasn't the probation officer.there's no way that the probation officer, that the probation officer contacted them and said, "I know you were drinking XYZ."Mm-hmm.Like, "Now you need to come in for a test."I, I have a, one in my head, there's one girl that I represented, and I specifically remember in my head that she got a violation of probation.She was on DUI probation.She was drinking, and this, some guy that was, like, supposed to be her friend, who I had also represented years earlier, called in the violation to probation and got her- Yep, they do that.in trouble.I said, "You will-" And she, she served, she served, like, over a month because of it.Yeah.It was a, it was, it was really bad.That is- Yes.concerning.And I told them, I said, "Your friends are not your friends."No, that's not, that's so- "They're not your friends."That's so true.They will call me- They will- "and get you in trouble."Yeah.They will getCareful what you put on social media.Yes.I mean, we didn't have to look at social media, but I was like, "Be careful what you put on social media."Yeah."Be careful what you say to people.Just be careful, 'cause you're going to find out who really cares about you while you're on probation."Your friends are not gonna get you outta jail.They're not gonna pay your bond.That's so true.And you, and so you go out with them and you have a good time and you're the one in jail and they're not gonna help you.They're gonna be like, "Oh, I don't know who you are."Yeah.So I was always very like, "You need to watch out what you do."Wow, that's so good.I feel like you really did try to, like, make it easier for your cli- like, your clients.Yeah, I didn't want them to come in and feel likeI mean, my office was very colorful.Yeah.Like, it wasn'tyou know, like dark and dingy or whatever.Like, I always try to have a smile on my face, even though everybody says I have RBF.But-like, I try to, like, you know- Yeah.make them not feel- Have good energy.Yeah.Make them not feel likeI didn't have any pictures of my kids or, like, family.That's probably good.Because you never know.Yeah.That's fair.Yeah.You're dealing with maybe some weirdos, so.So I didn't have that.But there are some of them that would, like, come in and they knew everything about you.One person, like, knew my whole, like, legal name.How did they get this information?And I'm like, "How do you know that?"That's- Did he tell you?a lot.So I was like, "Boss, you need to put-" Someone else.Reassign.Something because I don't feel comfortable.If you don't feel comfortable with someone, you're allowed to, like, be like, "Can you"Like, all the sex offenders, they would have a male- Supervisor.supervisor.They would not have a female 'cause, you know, just in case.Yeah.But other than that, indecent exposure cases.Right.My gosh.That's crazy.I wonder how he got your information.I don't know.That's so creepy.But it was, like, my full legal name and I'm like- How do you know my government?Like, how do you know my maiden name?Like, I'd never had that when I started.What?Like, no way.Yeah.I'm like- That's-"We're done here."that's, yeah, that's really creepy."We're done."That's crazy.They would be likeAnd then he would be like, "Hi," like, would pass by the office, "Hi."I had a few clients like that at the PD's office.It's so weird.Yeah.I was like- Like-"Please take them away from me."And it was always males.No offense to you.I'm not taking anything.He's like, "I'm not one of them."It's, like, so cringey.Like, some of them were very, like- Yeah.There's something wrong with you.Yeah.Yeah.For sure.And that's the thing.It's that you, as a probation officer, you see a lot of different types of people- Mm-hmm.you know, come in through the system, and sometimes it's first-time offenders, sometimes it's people who have been in and out of the system for years.And usually those people should not get probation and- Yeah.don't usually qualify to even get it, but somehow end up on it.Somehow they do.I don't know how, but- Yeah.it just- Yeah.happens.Yeah.But I think we have some rapid fire questions- Yeah.Let's do some rapid fire questions.So we're gonna ask you some questions.Okay.They're gonna be rapid fire.We can switch off.Sure.I'll go first.Okay.If you do this one thing, your probation officer instantly knows you're lying.What is it?L- not look at them directly in the eye.Ooh.Oh, okay.So if you're, like, talking and you're, like, keep looking other ways, you're lying.Okay.Well- My kids do that, so it's like- Yeah.I know you're lying.Yeah.A lack of eye contact for sure is an indicator.Yes.Worst excuse you've ever heard someone try on probation.Worst excuseWorst, "I can't come in because I'm sick," but you can tell that they're not sick.Or they're, like, at a concert, like- What?or, like, at a restaurant, or- Yeah.You're- they're like, uh, they're like, "Sorry."Yeah.They're like, "Sorry, I can't make it today."I'm like, "Well, you're making it."Yeah.Yeah.All right.In one word, describe the attorneys in your courtroom, so prosecutors.Hard asses in the beginning.Okay.Defense attorneys.Motherly.Motherly?Okay.Okay.Okay.Judges.Depends on whoJust in general, judges?Yeah.Just the word that comes to mind for judges.Knowledgeable.Knowledgeable.Okay.Okay.That's pretty good.Stricter judge or stricter probation officer, who's scarier?Stricter judge.Okay.I agree.Fair enough.Yeah.I think so too.And last one.If probation had a theme song, what would it be?You know, I need a minute to think about this one.What is that song?It's a reggae song.<< Bad boys, put me on.>> It Wasn't Me.No, it wasn't Bad- it's not Bad Boys.Is it the song by Shaggy?It Wasn't Me?Yes.There you go.That one.It wasn't me.It was always, "I didn't do it."Yeah."It was such and such.""I didn't put the bottle"You know?Like, "I didn't drink.It was my friend who made me drink it."It was every excuse on each side.It was every ex- I've heard it all.Yes.I've heard it all.It doesn't matter what you say to me.I already know you're lying.Okay?Yeah.Because- You can't get cocaine in your pores.You have to actually- Oh mytake it.Yeah.You have to snort it.to, you know, eat it, like- They were probably getting confused with, like, fentanyl or something.Yes, something.I don't know.I- I justThe excuses I've heard in those 10 years was ridiculous.Well, now you just have to deal with your children's excuses.Yeah.Or, you know, yes.Yeah.Or all the children's excuses when they get in trouble.That's true 'cause now- But it's- it's tougher to deal with parents than it is with criminals.Wow.That's interesting.It is.I wouldn't expect that.Yeah.I would.Well, I guess, I guess it depends on- I'm a parent myself, so I think my, my kids are like the most angel, perfect beings on the planet.Yeah.Right?They're not.Yeah.But IThat's how I see them.Yeah.So telling a parent- That their kid is"This is what your kid is, you know, not like this," it's hard.They don't wanna hear it.Yeah.But it's different to be like, "You have to do this, or you're gonna go to jail, or you're gonna do this."And it's easier to deal with them.Yeah.Yeah.So that's what I miss the most.You're also, I guess, kind of more removed as a probation officer than probably your current role.Yes.Yeah, it's almost a year and a half.Yeah.Well- We miss you.Yeah, we definitely do.I miss you guys too.I truly do.And we're so happy you joined us.Yes, thank you so much for coming.Yes, thank you so much for coming today.You're welcome, you're welcome.If y'all wanna talk serial killers, I'm down.All right, we'll bring you back for a serial killer episode.Because Brandon was talking about it 2 podcasts ago, that he gets excited about, like- Yes.crimes, and so do I.And people think I'm insane too.They're like, "How do you know all this?"I'm like, "Because."That's how you know you're built for the- Yes.We'll have you back.We'll have you as a reoccurring guest for a different, a different topic.For serial killers, yes.Well, thank you so much for joining us.No, thank you guys.And if you enjoyed listening to this show, make sure you like, comment, and subscribe.We're on all platforms, Come Back With A Warrant dot pod.And leave us 5star reviews on whatever platform you're listening to.And if you did not like listening to 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