Welcome back to Come Back With A Warrant podcast.I'm Brandon Denitz.And I'm Monica Shuck.Before we kickstart this week's episode, this is your reminder that this podcast is not legal advice.It's real, unfiltered, and for entertainment purposes only.If you need to speak with a lawyer, call one.Or better yet, call us.Call us.So today's kind of a cool subject.I like the fact that we are gonna finally get into courtroom technology, AI, and really how things have kind of changed since COVID.Yeah.Um, because the court system as a whole has changed and the way that lawyering has, uh, progressed in the last few years has definitely changed.So true.Um, we have the addition of AI now- Mm-hmm.that in- is incorporated into almost everything that we do.Um, before we even get to the AI, weB- The AI.Sounds very old when I say-before we get to the AINo.Um, the, some of the earlier technology that's crept into the courtroom before that, um, have been, you know, Zoom and the remote hearing abilities.When we were first starting, courtroom technology was, you know, putting up slideshows- Yes.and- and trial.Yes.Hooking up your computer to the courtroom TV- TV.and playing videos.That was the extent of courtroom technology.That and the microphones.And that was advanced compared to- And that was advanced, yeah.the projector they were using years ago.And before that, boards probably.I don't know.Nothing.Chalkboards.And then we get this virus, and the next day Zoom appears.Suddenly.And everything in court went to Zoom for a short amount of time.Yeah.Um, and we were able to just work and go to court via Zoom.Even first appearance.So first appearance is within 24 hours of your arrest, you're supposed to see a judge, and they even figured out a way to do that remotely when the person is in jail in the same exact building as the judge.Right.So they've- they've figured out a way for everything.Like there is a way to remote in, some way, sh- There's like, there, the jail has its own software, whatever, company that they use that's not Zoom, and then we have Zoom for court, and if it's some- some actually jurisdictions in Florida use Teams instead of Zoom, which I hate.Right.Well, I mean, the- This is not sponsored by Zoom, by the way.No, but the-this technology has changed, uh, no pun intended, but if you zoom forward from COVID, we are still using a lot of this technology and it's not as much because you can still go to cou- Now you can go back and go to court for hearings, but the ability to be in multiple jurisdictions at once now exists because you can- Amazing.you know, I can have a case in Broward County and a case in Palm Beach County, and I can sit in my office in West Palm Beach and handle both cases and appear.And that's beneficial, um, but it also takes away from the ability to interact with people in the courtroom and get certain things done.Yes.Talking to a prosecutor in person- Huge.is, it can't be replaced- No.by any sort of Zoom or email- Email, Zoom, nothing.or phone call.No.Um, making certain arguments in front of a judge cannot, is not the same over Zoom.I agree.And they did try to do, and- and were successful to an extent, doing trials over Zoom and, um- Not a fan of that.my sister-in-law and brother-in-law learned how to try cases in law school with Zoom.Wow.And they had, you know, trial competitions with, through Zoom, which is just- That's crazy to me.Right.And also, not enjoyable to watch.Yeah.And it's not something that, um, is g- it's not entertaining for a jury.It's not entertaining for a, the- the court, and you don't, it's just, you don't get the same effect.Nothing is the- No.it- it's very different when you're doing it over the, over the screen.Yeah.The only thing that's easier on Zoom is like screen sharing, so like presenting evidence probably.To an extent, but you can't confront somebody while you're cross-examining them the same way.Yeah.It takes a long time, and part of cross-examination that makes it so effective is the timing.Mm-hmm.The timing of the lawyer, the timing of the questioning.Hm.When there's this long drawn delay because now you have to have them look at something on the, you know, on the computer- Yeah.and it's not as quick, um, you lose some of that effectiveness.Yeah.You lose some of that ability.There's also kind of a reliability of the testimony issue because you really can't control what the witness is looking at on the screen, and even though they may be testifying or telling the judge that they're not looking at anything, you really never know.They may be looking at their old statement right in front of them and you, they could be testifying to it.Like there are so many issues that come up with Zoom, and like I think it's great for convenience in terms of like rescheduling or like quick motions or things that are not so like in-person heavy, like what you're saying, but like I said, like sometimes I'll have a status check where it's like I know it's going to be rescheduled but I've been trying to get a hold of this prosecutor via email, phone for the past month, and I can't get a hold of them.The best way I know how to get this case resolved is to drive physically to court, talk to this prosecutor in person before addressing the case, because then I can move the case further along.Right.So I agree with you.I think it's h- I think that is huge, like having conversations in person that just like can't rep- Like you cannotAs manyWe can find as many substitutes as we want, which is good for convenience, but it's not the same.No.It's- it's not.So speaking on AI specifically in the legal practice, and this is something that has been incorporated.So as a part of our job, we have like legal search engines.We have Westlaw and Lexis, which are the 2 biggest ones.There's obviously other, I think there's others out there.I don't even know about other ones, but those are the 2 I know.They definitely exist.But those are the 2 big ones, and those are the ones they teach you in law school to learn how to search.And even with those platforms as a subscription, add-on subscription, they have an AI tool associated with the legal search engine that helps you identify cases that are on point with your case and like help you draft template motions.They're, it, it's, it's an AI.It's like ChatGPT- Right.but it's associated with the Lexis or the Westlaw.And so this is something that all lawyers can have access to if they choose to pay for it.And the risk that has come up in the past and in actual real life, which is the production of basically b- bad case law, or like- Right.there is, going back to ethics, a duty to be honest with the court, to file good faith motions, a duty to make sure that whatever we are alleging in our motion, the other side can disagree all they want, but we are saying the law based off of, like we are representing the law as it is in our motion.And misrepresenting anything in anything you file with your bar license on the line and like signing that motion, you could risk losing your license.And so like that is why this is a big discussion in the current legal field, because it's an up-and-coming aspect of our jobs that is new, that nobody's ever experienced before, and now attorneys are using AI to their benefit, and I think they should.I use AI sometimes, but I have gotten bad case law from my legal AI where I double-checked it, thankfully, and saw that this was something that was not even real.Yeah, it was something I wanted the case to say.Of course, it was beneficial to what I was searching.But it's, I would never, I wouldn't, like s- I think people just copy and paste and they're, th- I don't think it's a malicious thing that, if that happened, I think it's just like, they're just trusting this AI tool to create good law and like do its job.But it's, at the end of the day, still like a robot or technology or whatever you wanna call it, and can create fake news.Right, but the, but, so, uh, it's so important to really explain what's happening and what lawyers are doing with AI that's problematic.Any time we write a motion and we make an argument and we're arguing based on the law, we have to put where we're getting that from.And that is relying on other cases that have happened in the past and have already been decided.That prior case law which sets the law, we rely on that to make our arguments.So you have to cite to those cases and show exactly where you're getting your work from.It's no different than a, a bibliography or a works cited at the end of a report when you're in high school- Yeah.or in college.You have to cite where you're getting everything from.When the judges are reading these motions, they are looking at the case law and seeing that you're citing your argument based on this law from this case.The judge is saying, "Okay, well this, if a lawyer is putting this in front of me, this case, A, exists, and B, says what they say it's going to."Because if either of those things aren't true, or if a new law has come out that makes that bad case law, you shouldn't be relying on it, and it's problematic if you are relying on it.Now, sometimes that happens where the law changes and you didn't, you genuinely maybe didn't know about it, and then that's, you know, the other side says, "No, that law is no longer a good law."Fine.That happens in, in typical arguments.Yeah.But putting out there a case that proclaims to say something when that case doesn't even exist is a huge problem.And as a lawyer, you have the responsibility to know what the cases you s- you're citing, what they say and what they actually stand for.Yeah, and you also have a responsibility to know the case law that goes against what you're saying- Correct.or what you're citing.And there's even a, an argument to be made that you have to even a- I think good lawyers would address the bad case law in their own motion.Like, say that this is the law that sup- supports what I'm saying, there is bad case law, because the other side is gonna come and say there's bad case law on this.They're going to say there's bad case law that you did not address in your motion, which is also a problem, and then you're gonna have to rebut it in court anyways.So, you might as well just prepare accordingly and put it in your motion unless it's something that's, like, not completely on point with the issue.But the, the duty to disclose all of the law related to the issue or to what you're requesting with the court is a part of your ethical role as a lawyer, and that couldYou could end up risking way more than what you think.Using, like, using AI is, is great and it's a part of what we're doing now, but at the same time, we need to, like, be very careful.And there's a case right now that I know about, um, that we spoke about with, um, it was a, a Morgan and Morgan case, uh, against, I believe, Walmart, and they had an associate that used ChatGPT and cited, uh, to write, to help write their motion, and ChatGPT spit out some case law for them to use that was on point with their, uh, side of the argument.And when the judge reviewed the case law, he found that that case, those cases didn't exist, and that caused a huge problem for those lawyers.You know, you could be held in contempt for things like that.That's- It's, it's a very big deal, and I, I believe, uh, that law firm now has a policy where you're not allowed to use ChatGPT, but that wasn't an issue that, you know, we had a few years ago, and now it's something that's really serious because AI is wonderful in the things that it can do for you if utilized correctly, but you can't fully rely on it.Just like you can't fully rely on, you know, anything.You have to check over the work that it does for you.Yeah, especially if you're putting your bar number on the- Correct.likeYou can't, you can't just, you know, you can't just wing it just because it's saving you a significant amount of time.It's already saving you a significant amount of time.You know what I mean?Like, your work now is to double-check it and, like, proofread it.You know, it's like notIt's just ano- an, an added laziness if you're not- Exactly.checking the actual work that it's giving you.Exactly.Like, yeah, it's convenient, but at the same time, like, doKnowing what you're risking, it's just not worth it.So, um, but speaking on, likeC- it's so funny 'cause I had, I have a story about when ISo, presenting th- like, slideshows and stuff in court, like, talking about tech, court, room tech- Courtroom technology.Yes.Yeah.I don't know why I couldn't get that out, but- It's all right.Um, I was on a murder trial, and usually, to be fair, for people who don't know, prosecutors are usually the ones that are familiar with the courtroom technology because they're the ones that always present the case.They're always the ones that have the video, they have the footage.Like, they're the ones putting it up on the screen, okay?N- barely ever are defense attorneys doing that.It happens sometimes, but usually it's them, and so they're very familiar with that.And so, I was in the middle of a murder trial, and, um, I was trying it with someone who's older than me and didn't, wasn't as familiar with courtroom technology.I know nothing about that because, like I said, I never ran into this problem.So, I was in a mi- I was in the middle of a murder trial, and we had to presentIt was like a scr- still screenshot from a video footage, and the judge justI justI, like, now in thinking about it, the judge just, like, let me just, like, try to figure it out, but it was really a shit show, and I had to ask the prosecutor in front of the jury to help me set up what we needed to set up, and she got up and helped me, but it was very much so, like, un- like, she did not want to.I was like, "Can you please help me?"And, like, everybody's just sitting and watching, and I'm like, trying to figure out courtroom technology.My heart's beating a million times.My client's- That's sim-probably like, "WTF."The judge is, like, wasting my t- I'm like, "Can s- can we get IT in here?"I, I don't, I don't like that because when I was, when I was the prosecutor eh, and I was doing anything in the courtroom wi- if the other side was having trouble- You were so helpful.I was very helpful- Yeah.because I thought I looked great in front of the jury- And I think it-being so helpful.I think it does.But also, like, I, I'm not gonna leave you hanging.Y- you- You're wasting t- we're wasting time.You need, you need help, and you're wasting my time.Yeah, likeBut I'm also not gonna leave the other person hang.Like, I work with the other people.Like, I'm not gonna th- like, ah, look at this idiot, can't work a projector.Like, I'm not gonna do that.I, like, I was so embarrassed, but IHonestly, I was like, "You know what?Let me put her on the spot," because she's the only person in this room that knows how to do this and is just sitting there watching me struggle, so.Yeah.But also, I do think that you, and this is a note for people in the future, you try to figure out those things before you actually try the case or when the jury's not out so that way you, like, can- Actually-make sure that's not an issue- Yeah.um, to make sure the technology's working.That is great advice for anybody listening.Yes.If you are in any sort of trial setting, make sure the technology works before the jury or the judge is out so that way you don't have to be sitting there kinda wasting everybody's time when- Yeah.something's not working.That's exactly what was happening.And it's like everybody's quietly watching me struggle, and I'm like, "Oh my God, I've never had to do this."And m- the person I was doing it with, he was like-You're younger than me, you know?It's never seamless though, the technology in a courtroom is never seamless.It never works exactly the way that you want it to.The video never stops exactly where you want it to or starts where you want it to.The audio's never playing exactly the right way.You just have to- It's always something.roll with it.Exactly.Exactly.And if the jury wants to see it again, they can have the opportunity to ask at the end to see it again.Yeah.And you go from there.Exactly.So, um, but you just brought me back in time and I was like, "Oh my."I remember when I was struggling in front of the jury for due to courtroom technology.Um, but speaking on the Morgan and Morgan case, we did say it was, you can get disbarred, but before even that, or not disbarred, probably not disbarred.I don't think that goes for disbarred.I would think that's a little bit far if the person gets disbarred for it.Yeah, I think it's a little- But- But you definitely, yeah, yes.sanctions is something that's possible.And- And you can be sanctioned.And that's something you can be sanctioned like by that individual judge.Like you said- Yeah, the court.like you can be held in contempt.You can also be sanctioned like f- financially or whatever.Right.And there are different ways.It's not just, and this, this goes into the other topic we were talking about where you can be in trouble with the bar, you can be in trouble legally.Like those are 2 separate things.And so the judges are obviously, they're lawyers.They're aware of the ethical rules and they know that you shouldn't be citing bad laws.So if you're citing bad law, they're, the other side can seek sanctions against you.Right.Which they often do in civil court.There's nothing civil about civil court.Listen, I was like, "Why are you guys all being so mean to me?"My, the prosecutors are so nice to me in criminal court.Well, I think, uh, one thing to me though that- that's pretty clear is AI is not in any position to take over our in-court job.The role that we play and the m- the, uh, our ability to navigate cases for our clients is not something that I can ask ChatGPT to do for me.Yeah.And I can't, you know, I can ask ChatGPT to write an email to a prosecutor, but I can't ask it to have the conversation with the prosecutor in court, or tell it to come up with some of the information that I need, some of the mitigating information that I need.That's, that's stuff that I have to do.And the, i- i- it's just not gonna replace me in that, in that position.Our job is such a people job.Like we have to connect in so many different ways with people.And yeah, we have to send emails, which we can definitely, I use chat sometimes to write my emails just because it writes it better than me.But at the same time, like we need to be able to have like human connection and understand what people are going through when it comes to our clients, be able to understand when is the right time to actually ask for something with the j- for the judge or the prosecutor or negotiating.Like all of that involves like more than just communication.Like there is more aspects to it that involves like understanding humanity, humans, how we operate.Like it's not something that like a robot can do.I don't think ever.And it, I mean, if it ever gets to that point, I think they would do a really bad job because it wouldn't, it wouldn't be set, it would be so rigid.It wouldn't be set up for- Mm-hmm.the gray areas or the way, the way we can, you know, the prosecutor is the only one that can depart from, from the guidelines, for instance.You know what I mean?Like things like that, like, there are just aspects of the job that like I would have a tough time imagining AI doing all lawyer's jobs.I, I, I agree.You know?I agree.Or like- I think it would be difficult.I don't think an AI could be a trial attorney.Or a judge.Right.Like can you imagine?Like that would be scary.Well yeah, because they're, yeah.'Cause they're analyzing the facts off of a piece of paper as the police officer wrote them and interpreting them as truth.Truth.How do youAnd like a lot of like factors that come into credibility, like weighing the evidence instruction always says like you can like look at, like you're allowed to- Your own personal, the things that it, it, the experiences in your personal life that have shaped you into the person you are, that make you think the way that you are, that make you render a certain judgment over somebody else's actions, talking about the jury at this point.Yeah.Like, that's, that's different per person.Exactly.And like assessing credibility.like, body language.Like, seeing, seeing if somebody's telling the truth.there was, their answerIf you're, if you're reading the answer as a robot, you're not hearing the tone in their voice, you're not seeing their body language, you're not seeing that maybe this person was confident when they said this statement, but they weren't so confident when they said this statement.And, like, if you're reading it off a transcript as an a- as AI would, it would just take it for as it is and not really see that this witness is not as reliable as it seems to be on paper.Right.But I also think, on the other hand, and I know that there's law firms that are using AI right now in jury selection, you can use, uh, the statistic benefits from AI to predict certain things that could be beneficial.And what people are doing now is while a jury is being picked, they have a team that is funneling all of the information, or processing all the information through AI, all of the answers that they're getting from the prospective jurors, all the information about the prospective jurors, and they're getting what would loo- be the, uh, panel that will probably be the most favorable towards them.But it's, it's, uh, it's just a prediction and it's definitely where you're dealing with the humans and human emotion and human me- you know, brains.You can't predict that.It's a, it's such a risk.Like, imagine trying that tool for the first time with your client who's facing X amount of time.Like- Well, that's why it's, I don't think it's like-relying on it.Yeah.a criminal, a big criminal tool yet.Yeah.I did actually get reached out to s- by somebody today about that.Oh, wow.That they were trying to sell me the AI, the AI software for jury selection.I was like, "I'm good on this for now.Thank you."Yeah.We'll see how this evolves over time.Yeah.Maybe my, my other friends can try it and let me know if it works.Yeah.But I won't be the guinea pig.Uh, no, I would love- My client is going up- I would love to get an AI report on a jury panel that I have and then, you know, get to look at that and- How do you-consider it.Yeah.But I, I don't, I'm not, I wouldn't- How do you double-check-pick the jury just based on that.Yeah, and how would you double-check that information in order to, like, see if this software is actually a good software to launch?Like, do they run this information and then actually pull these jurors and find out- After, like, yeah.Yeah, to find out if this information is correct?Like, I would want to know all of those things because jury selection is such a, we had a whole topic on jury selection.Like, it's such a big part of the process.Like, I would not risk it.But the, it is a cool tool to think that if it ever does work successfully, I would definitely invest in it.Yeah.Like, 100%.Yeah, I agree.There is also, we, I mean, we talked a little bit about this, but there's also this aspect of, like, maybe issues with, like, the progression of technology in terms of, like, what will come in the future, like VR.Well, yeah.I mean, uh, you wanna think of, um, ways that some of the newer technology will be implemented in courtrooms.There are ways that you can set up a VR scenario puts you in the same position as people that are parties in the case.And what I mean by that is there is, um, I don't know the specific case, but I know of a case where a VR scenario was generated that was used by a criminal defense team to explain why their client reacted the way he did in self-defense.And on the VR video, the VR video that the jurors watched, it showed a group of people coming at the person.And that feeling, trying to create that feeling of being, like, overwhelmed and you need to protect yourself and, and fight back.And there are sc- there are going to be different ways and scenarios that come up that people are gonna implement this type of technology to, you know, you don't have toYou can have a jury look at a crime scene with a VR headset and if it's, they could be looking all around the room and be in the crime scene without ever, without ever having to go there.Um, you know, you're, that's, that's the type of technology or, or doing different types of diagrams for reenacting crimes- I was just gonna say.or accident reconstruction.All of that is, is different.Now, all of that also gets changed by AI because now the ideas of, uh, ballistics for guns, it, it starts getting a little bit more accurate.Now we're starting to see the, um, uh, statistics for car crashes or the way that the AI can process it can now spit out, "Hey, this vehicle never could have stopped in time to, to avoid this accident."Uh, so whether your client was drunk or not, they wouldn't have been able to stop the car, so that's something that now has to be considered by the state attorney's office.I mean, there's so many different ways that AI is, uh, AI and, um, technology are gonna change and go into the courtroom.Um, it's gonna be beneficial, I think, to both sides.Yeah.I was just thinking that.I, I don't think it benefits one side more than the other.I think it'll be beneficial to both sides.Yeah, like demonstratives.If we raise a self-defense issue and we wanna show how this person felt in this situation, like you said, it was a bunch of people coming, like, that is soI mean, it's also scary to think about what it can create, but it's so cool to think that it could create that scenario again for the jury or for the judge to see.But I don't know.I didn't think about, like, the crime scene with the VR.Like, that's crazy.Yeah.Like, and I do think that we will get to a point where it's, it's like that.Speaking on like technology, it's just like anything else, whenever our cases involve something that require expert testimony, we always need to go to the experts and like the state will have their expert, but we also need our own expert.And what we do is we reach out to people who know how to handle these niches in whatever it is, whether it's ballistics and in this situation, we're talking about AI in technology and the back end of these things, developers or whoever creates these.Those are the people we would consult with and say, "Hey where are the f- like where's, where is the error here?"BecauseAnd then that's how we would attack the case.Yeah.Because otherwise, thereIf the state is showing us something from AI that says, you know, "This is for sure your client DNA 100%," I don't know if it's something that can be incorporated with AI.Who knows?Like in the future.But like, because it never is like 100%.Right.Um, but we would then need to attack it with the expert in that field to explain how the error could have happened.And by doing that, we have to educate ourselves about whatever it is that we're discussing in court.That makes sense.And there's just, there's just a lot of different things that I think lawyers become like secondary expert, like med mal lawyers.They become basically like they- Doctors.Yeah.They know all theLike they talk in all, all the doctor's languages knowing all the, all the diagnoses and all theLike for me, I'm like, "I can't even pronounce that word."Couldn't, couldn't tell you.Mm-mm.But based off yourI would say based off your case in criminal cases, that's what would make you more of a expert in a specific niche, is like the issue in the case.Um, but aside from that, th- I was just thinking like how would we attack that as criminal defense attorneys?I don't know and I think that it's gonna come up, you're right, because we're gonnathere's gonna have to be defenses and there's gonna have to be, um, cross examination to the people that are putting together these VR or AI- Yeah.things andHow do we know-what to cross on?Right.We have to consult with someone who knows that product better than the person testifying about it.Right.obviously, there's just a lot of dangers to technology and the proco- progression of it and it is, it is bound to happen, but ultimately I don't, I don't think it's necessarily a bad thing.I think it's a great tool.I thinkI use it to the best, to the best of my ability without risking myself.But, um, obviously, ChatGBT and all the AI tools, I really don't think will replace us as attorneys, or lawyers, litigators.Maybe as the transactional ones.Yikes.I don't know.I kinda look at, I kinda look at ChatGBT like a firework.Like it's super fucking dangerous, but if you're using it with the right supervision and care, it's a wonderful thing.And it's, it could be beautiful.Yeah.And it could, you know, can change, uh, the game for you in, in any number of ways, but it's very dangerous at this stage and ifIt's, you know, it's new and it's a lot of power.Well.So, just be careful.Handle with care.Yeah.Like a firework.All right, so before we close out for the day, I want to take a moment and do some rapid fire AI based questions.Let's hear it.Okay.All right, so I'm gonna start off with the first one.Better lawyer, ChatGBT or the guy who shows up late with coffee stains on his shirt?I think showing up late with coffee stains on his shirt.Most likely to be replaced first, a prosecutor, defense attorney, or court reporter?Definitely court reporter.Yeah, definitely court reporter.That was an easy one.That's definitely already a thing.Yeah, I thinkWell, INo, because you still have stenographers in, in court, but you could have- You could have-AI listening to it and transcribing it.transcript, transcribing it.Yeah.We would just have to get some sort of certification or they would have to be certified.It's coming.Yeah, okay.It's definitely coming.That one sounds like it's coming.Um, AI judges in robes, is that iconic or nightmare fuel?Nightmare.Yeah, it's weird.I don't like that.There'sI don't like robotic judges in general.Uh, you know what?Let me not comment on the current judges.I wasn't sc-I was not commenting on current judges.But I was going to and my brain was like, "Stop."I'm saying an actual robot judge.Not that any of the judges currently are robotic.Are robots.Robotic.Or robots.Yeah, no.I'm not going there.And that is all the time we have.Before we do something that actually gets us in trouble- Just so you go b-um, that is all the time that we have today.Monica, tell them what to do.Yes.If you liked listening, listening to this podcast, make sure you like, comment, and subscribe on all platforms, come back with a warrant.pod, subscribe to our newsletter, and leave us a five star review and if you didn't like listening to usCome back with a warrant.