Welcome back to Come Back With A Warrant podcast.I'm Brandon Denitz.And I'm Monica Shack.Before we kickstart this week's episode, this is your reminder that this podcast is not legal advice.It's real, unfiltered, and for entertainment purposes only.If you need to speak with a lawyer, call one.Or better yet, call us.Call us.So is the hardest part of being a defense attorney the law or managing clients?Definitely managing clients.Okay.Definitely.I mean, today's episode, we're gonna be talking about client control and dealing with the emotions of others, especially our clients, because we take on a lot of other stress from other people when we do our job, and rightfully so.Our clients come to us under a lot of stress because they are being accused of a criminal act of some sort.But we oftentimes become part therapist and part counselor and part advisor and part coach, and, you know, we get everything, every type of situation, and then we often have to deal with people that have mental health issues or substance abuse issues.Yeah, and they all intersect at 1 point because not only is this a criminal case, it could be related to a DUI or whatever it is that's substance-related, or maybe there's a mitigating factor for why they acted in a certain way on, on that day due to their mental health.Aside from all that, just having to deal with the effects of it when you're counseling them in their case, and then having to help them rebuild their life back into the community if, you know, they've lost their job as a result of getting arrested or their home as a result of getting arrested for a domestic or whatever it is.And so, there's so many different points of intersection that we ultimately kind of get the effect or, like, the baggage that comes with it.Right.I mean, and we take on, you know, everything from manic episodes of our clients, where they're cursing us out and really angry, and then, you know, the next phone call with them, they're really apologetic or- Yeah.like it never happened, and you have to be able to tolerate, um,others and handle everything with some empathy and also let it roll off your own shoulders, because taking on the emotions of your clients is unhealthy- Yeah.to a degree, because as much as I wanna, you knowI understand how they're struggling, I understand how they're stressed, like, that stress is not my stress.I have to always remember that and remember to not take that on.And also remember that when my clients are angry or upset with me, 9 times out of 10, it's not that they're upset with me, they're upset with the circumstance- Circumstance, yeah.that they're currently in.Yeah.And I understand that because I know that the next time I talk to them when they're happy and they apologize to me and they, they, you know, explain to me, "Look, I'm just really going through a bad time," I get it.I understand, like, you know, you- You don't hold it against them.No, never.And that's, I think, where, like, if you let your ego get in the way of, like, your relationship with your client, there can be so much trust broken there and then you can't really even move forward and resolve the case together because the point is that you're a team, and you can't get certain things done in your job, whether you're presenting mitigation to the state, without the assistance of your client and vice versa.Obviously, they need you.Th- that is, like, such a big point.I get random rage messages from my clients sometimes when they're having a bad day and it will have sometimes nothing to do with me.Like, sometimes about their probation officer, sometimeYou know, it's just r- random.And, like, to me, when I get them, like, they're random, so I think it's kind of funny 'cause, likeYeah.I, like, don't expect it.I'm like, "Oh, okay."Yeah.But then I'm like, "Okay, they're probably going through something."Right.And we end up having a conversation about it, and it's, it's not easy for them, so understanding and having that empathy, like you said, and being compassionate towards them, but my problem is, has always been, I've been too compassionate and empathetic to my clients, and I have let it get to me in the sense of, like, I, it's, uh, I absorb it and it takes over.I lose sleep, I think about it all the time.You know, I wake up in the middle of the night, likeOh, not anymore, but I used to h- like, struggle with this because when I first started in public defense, I was 24, I didn't have much life experience, and I wasn't exposed to a lot of the people and communities that I was exposed to as a public defender, and I was still so young.And so, having experienced certain interactions with my clients without having that knowledge or training from, like, law school or prior to that, it weighed on me.And so if you're not aware of the things that our clients struggle with and you enter the Public Defender's Office or maybe even legal aid or other sorts of circumstances where you, or jobs where you deal with a lot of trauma, you can get secondhand trauma just from being exposed to it and being, taking on the grunt of a lot of what your clients are going through.And so, I had, when I was working for a private attorn- criminal defense attorney, he told me, like, "You, like, basically care too much.Like, we need to, like, have some boundaries."And at the time, you know, thinking back, hindsight is 20Thinking back, I definitely, like, my response was, like, this is myThat's like my juice.That's like what keeps me going, which is true because I love and, what I do, and I'm very passionate about it.But there are times now where my clients, like, I need to have that conversation with them where it's like- Setting boundaries."We gotta stop."Yeah, and I was gonna ask you, is, when do you know that it gets to the point where you need to start setting certain boundaries with clients?Like- Once we have the same conversation more than twice.Okay.Like, once it's like, like, I will let them have their therapy session one time.Once it comes up again, I, I tell them, like, "We're not doing this."Like, because oftentimesThey are either, like, the first time it happens, they're either receiving information from me or from the situation that is affecting their mental state in real time.So because of that, I allow them to be human and experience the emotions that come with whatever information they're receiving that they feel like is so daunting.If it's, if it's, like, if they're fixated on it, I'm not your therapist.Like, I am here to legally guide you and counsel you on the best outcome and what we need to do next, but if you wanna talk about this more, you need to pay for somebody else to listen to it 'cause that's, you're taking away from my time to work on your case legally.My job is to be your lawyer.So I just remind them that this is not my role and if they need support, like resources, I'm happy to connect them, but that's not my job.So- Yeah.I, I usually feel like once you get, as you called it, like a rage test session- Yeah.and then, and I, I'm understanding about that and then after that it's like, "No.We're not gonna, we're not gonna do that.You're not gonna talk to me that way.We're gonna have a very, you know, civil conversation because the role that I am here for is, I'm not, you know, your friend and I'm also not paid by you to bullshit you."Exactly.I tell that to a lot of my clients is- Yeah.you don't pay me to kiss your ass.You don't pay me to give you bullshit.In fact, you pay me for the opposite.You pay me to tell you exactly the way that it is- Mm-hmm.whether you like it or not and make sure that I'm giving you- Exactly.all of the information that you need.And sometimes clients aren't ready to hear that or they're in denial or they're upset or they're depressed and you go through those different stages of grief with them and get them through to the other side.Often, you know, people that are dealing with their first time being arrested are very, very nervous and concerned, rightfully so, because this is not something that they've ever gone through before.But, you know, we know what the process is gonna be for them, so I'm able to not take on their stress load on a situation where it's like, you know, somebody got their first DUI ever and they're thinking the world is gonna fall a- all around them and they're never gonna get a job and they're never gonna get, you know- Yeah.And you just-anything.And I'm, and I just, falls, it goes right over, you know, i- i- it goes right off my back.I don't absorb any of that anymore.But yeah.At the beginning, like I used to, like when I would have a client call me and say, "Hey, I have a warrant out for my arrest."Yeah.I would freak out and be like, "I need to get the order to recall this warrant like right away."Otherwise, it almost felt like I was the one with the warrant.Getting arrested.And it's not healthy.You can't, you can't do this job effectively.Yeah.But I also have the other benefit of when I go home in the afternoon and I'm spending time with my family, like, my son doesn't know what is going on with my cases or- Yeah.care about any of that stuff.So I have to completely turn that off because I'm not gonna be stressed out about so and so's warrant when I'm playing with blocks with my son.Like, it's just not gonna happen.Yeah.And part of the, I feel like it's part- partly a gift to be able to compartmentalize like that- You have to.and separate all that stuff out.But with what we take on in a given day, yeah, absolutely.And I think there are plenty of attorneys that wind up embracing too much of the trauma and stress from their clients and you can see it in the way that they- It shows.argue in court.Yeah.When, when they're advocating, they're advocating strongly, but they're advocating also from a point of emotion, not just logic and law.It becomes personal.And you see that and you can tell like, okay, like you're taking onAnd sometimes it's effective- Yeah.because it's like, wow, they're really compelling.But if they're doing it all the time, you're like, this is not a healthy way to live- No.or run a business.It shows for sure.And I've seen, I remember those attorneys when I was at the state, uh, seeing, having cases against them when they were just so emotionally heated about nonsense, n- you know, small, minor things in cases.You can see that they, they're adapting too much of the stress that, that your clients have.Sometimes their clients put on so much pressure ontry to put on so much pressure on us when it comes to making certain arguments and they are notSo, the ethical rules dictate who is to make the decision in certain cases and specificallyOr, I shouldn't say certain cases.In all cases, but at certain points of the case.And specifically when it comes to strategy and making certain legal arguments, that is up to us because we are the lawyers, we are the experts, we know.But when it comes to life-affecting circumstances such as, "Are you going to take a plea of guilty or not guilty and go to trial and risk the maximum or getting a minimum mandatory," or whatever it is, those things are decided by the client and not us.We are the ones that are getting them to that destination.So, we just present everything according to our expertise, what is the best outcome, but if they wanna ignore it and they want us to argue, you know, a random legal issue that doesn't exist in the case, we don't, we don't work for them.Like, that's not how this works.And so, when you have an attorney that doesn't really see the, the distinction between who is the one that's really in control of getting the case to where it needs to be and the client is the one to tell you where, which direction they wanna go, that is when it becomes, I thinkIt turns into what you're describing.Yeah, and if you let the situation get out of control by letting your client control the complete situation, um, you, you run into problems.Because when you have situations where your clients are thinking about conspiracy theories as to how they got arrested and it's so off-baseAnd I'm not talking necessarily people that are having mental health problems.I'm talking about regular people that'll say, like, "Oh, this cop is dirty," or, you know, "The Irish mob had a hand in making sure I got arrested."When you hearAnd which is something I've heard.When you hear random things like that, you have to, you know, you have to be the one that's making the decisions.It's like, "I'm not going down that avenue."Like, "I'm not gonna start looking into the conspiracy angles on your case and then present that to the State Attorney's office as that's what's, you know, going on here."Uh, you're just not gonna do that.And that'sReally comes down to what you're saying though, is w- we have to make certain decisions in the case, and strategy and the direction of the case, for the most part, other than the things you just said, that's, that's up to us.Yeah, and someone has to be the level-headed one.Someone has to be the one that is able to separate the law and yes, while this l- this criminal law violation affects so many areas of that person's life, we need to be able to see that this is a legal issue or this is how I can help them, legally or otherwise.And this is something I cannot control.It's out of my hands.I've supported them in the best way I can, and they need to seek resources elsewhere.And so, I think it becomesAnd like, I don't mind thatI thinkAnd like I said, a part of what, the reason why I love to do what I do is because I am helping people in circumstances that is justIt's not just in the legal field, right?Like, I'm helping them rebuild their life, or I'm helping them get to a better place andHopefully.That is a part of what I love to do but at the same time, it needs to be cut off at a certain extent because I can't sit here all day on the phone and listen to you and why you're upset about this situation.I understand that and that's why I need to get back to work and focus on your actual case.I was gonna say, you know, we had a case together whereAnd oftentimes, we have to just, like, assure our clients that, you know, it's, it is fine.I got, yesterday, a call for an expired DL for more than 6 months.Yes, it's a misdemeanor and this person had never been in trouble before but oh my gosh, the, the, the stress they were enduring.I'm like, "The fact that you got a notice to appear, which is in lieu of an arrest, you get a notice, 'Go to court on this date.'" That says enough about the trajectory of where this is going.Like, do not worry.It will likely get dismissed.That you're not going into jail.Yeah.Correct.It is likely getting dismissed.Like, yeah.You are facing jail time, like, on paper.Are you going to jail?Especially in South Florida for an expired DL?No.Like, please.Take a deep breath.Everything will be okay.So like, you have to kind of have thoseLike, that was my conversation yesterday and it was like, I don't know if thatThat could trigger some people.I don't care.But like, you need to know, like, that's a part of the reality.Just like on the other side of it, I have s- very serious conversations with my clients where they are like, "Get me probation," and I'm like, "You have a 3year min man and we have no legal arguments against any, any of the facts alleged in this case, so we need to present mitigation and you need to get me something."Like- And you also need to start preparing for the idea that you're gonna be spending time behind bars.In custody.Yes.Right.And at this point, we're talking hopefully getting the min man waived.Like, there are so many different, like, conversations we have with our clients and while we have hard conversations, the other side of it is we're telling them to calm the fuck down.When I, when I get bad news that I have to give to a clientAnd when I say bad news that I have to give to a client, usually it's at the State Attorney's office telling me what the offer is and then me having to relay it.One of the things I do is I try to do it right away because I don't wanna delay it.Wait.I don't wanna wait and do it.Want to, first off, I think they're entitled to the information right away, so I give it to them right away.And second, delivering bad news isn't fun.It's not easy.You gotta get itYou gotta do it.Yeah.So, I get it done right away.And I call the client and tell them, "Look.This is the situation."I lay it out exactly as is and then I right away tell them what my next steps are, what my plans are.And if I don't have them, then I explain to them, "These are the next steps and this is what you can, you can do from here."Meaning, if there's no way that I can mitigate the, mitigate it further or negotiate the deal to be better, um, then I lay out the 2 options where they can either plea or they can take it to trial and what a trial would look like and what fighting it looks like.Um, but I make sure that I deliver that bad news right away.Me too.I don't sit on it.Because it'sIt weighs on me until I'm likeIt's like, "Oh, I still have to, like, do that."It's like just another thing I have to do, but it's another hard thing I have to do and it'sYeah, like speaking it, like, it's just a conversation.It's 5, 10 minutes of our time or whatever, 30 minutes of our time, but it's not necessarily about the time.It's more about, like, the heaviness of what you're going to experience when you do talk to the client.And we're human.Like, while we can just, like, compartmentalize and keep our lives separate and not let it weigh on us in such, such a way that it would affect us, it still is something that we experience and it doesn't mean that we don't feel anything, you know, when we're- It's not easy-interacting with our clients.to pick up the phone and have to tell people that they are going to jail, and that is what we're talking about when we talk about the hard decisions that we have.9 times out of 10 if I'm saying I have to have a tough decision with a client, it's because I'm explaining to them the amount of jail time they're facing.Or prison.Right.And IBut I'm, I'm not talking about it in a hypothetical, like, "Hey, you face a maximum of this."No, it's like- I'm saying, "You are being offered 5 years in prison.This is what's in front of you.This is what our defenses are, and this is what we can do."It's very heavy stuff that you have to get off your own plate right away.Yeah.There's no reason for it to sit around, and it's not an easyIt's not gonna be an easy conversation to have.You know, no part of that process is, is easy, but that's necessary for us and it's, uh, it's part of the job.Yeah, and also, doing it ASAP gives them time to think about it, consider it, sleep on it, 'cause I'm like, "Do not give me an answer right now."Right.Um, we'll schedule a call for next week, and we will talk about this again, because you just receivedI understand you just received such heavy news, you know, and you need to really think about what we just talked about.So, but on the flip side of things, uh, we, because we were in county court, which is only misdemeanors, we had a case together.Yeah.And so, we're talking, you know, a lot about risking it going to trial versus pleading guilty.And so, Brandon and I had a first-degree misdemeanor case together, and this was actually my first trial, and my client was basically being offered a dismissal.She was being offered a dismissal.Yeah.Not basically.Yeah, and, uh, she just needed to sign a, uh, a- No, she didn't.She didn't even- I even waived that.Okay.So, the bottom line here, I'll briefly tell this story, but Monica and I had a case.The person was charged with a first-degree misdemeanor, and they were hesitant to do anything other than fight the case and go to trial.I offered what is called a deferred prosecution agreement, which is basically a document that says if the person agrees to do something, then the State Attorney's office will drop the case and dismiss it.No guilty plea, nothing.There's no admissions of anything.There's no guilty plea, no nothing.I agreed that this person wouldn't even have to sign that agreement, that Monica's signature alone would be sufficient, and if Monica signed that document, I was ready to dismiss it.So, allThe only condition that had to happen was Monica signing a document that s- basically said that the person agrees to complete conditions, which there was no conditions other than Monica signing the piece of paper, and then I would have entered another piece of paper right behind it dismissing the case.Yup, and I did not sign that paper.And Monica did not sign that paper.Yeah, we went to trial.We lost.The defense lost.Brandon won.Or the State, I should say,it was a victory for you.And my client got senten- sent, uh, sentenced to jail from the judge.So, there, she literally could have just walked out of the courtroom and called it a day, actually never have even come to court, but she wouldn't give me permission to sign the paper.She ended up having to face- What do you think that's taught you about client control, and how do you think back on that now when you're dealing with cases?So, in that specific situation, so many people from the office spoke to that individual.So I don't think it would've even mattered in that si- si- scenario.But having had that experience as my first trial moving forward, it definitely made me explain that process to clients in a much simpler way, where they don't feel like they are admitting to something or giving something up as a result, especially for someone who had no criminal history, which she did not.That's part of the reason why you offered that.could get off your record.You could expunge that.Correct.Like, that's, it's not, it's not something that will affect your life ever, you know?And so she ended up having to deal with a very long process that I later did not, wasn't assigned on the case, but I went back and looked, and I was likeI thought to myself, like, had, just like, it, had she just like done what everybody advised her to do from our office, it would've been such an easier result, a better result for her, and easier experience because that happened right before COVID, and the jails were overcrowded, more so than usual, and it was just a whole whirlwind of issues that were going on surrounding that time.So in terms of client control, definitely just getting straight to the point.In the beginning, I didn't know how to do that, you know?I was just like, "Oh, I was scared shitless also to go to trial, so.Yeah, I, I think that taught me, as a prosecutor and asAs a prosecutor, there was literally nothing else I could've done.No, yeah.Um, as a defense attorney now that looks back on that, it, I think you hit the nail on the head.It, you have to be able to articulate why certain things are better than others, um, and why they are a win, whether that's, you knowuh, she was looking for just like an outright dismissal, which the case was already brought in, and the notice to appear was alreadyEverything was already filed.The case was already open.It wasn't going anywhere.It wasn't gonna just beThere was no other mechanism to do what I was gonna do other than what I did, which was how to dismiss that case for that person, which I thought was appropriate because I didn't think it was that serious of a situation.I, you knowIt was a, uh, uh, a misdemeanor for basically just interfering with an ongoing investigation.That's all that was going on and I was using my discretion as a prosecutor at the time.But it taught me that you have to be able to talk to people about their pride when it comes to- Yeah.certain cases because your pride can't get in the way if the long-term goal is for this to be gone.You have to be able to- Look at the bigger picture.Right, and, and- Zoom out.s- and take your ego out of it.Yeah, yeah, exactly because- Uh, because otherwise you are looking, you know, you get put in jail by a judge that hears the case and is not happy with what happened.And it's like, you know- Yeah.that was it.And I mean, it's besides the point that the evidence in that case was all on video.Yeah.Everything was very clear.There was noShe didn't have any legal argument for what she was doing.No, no.Um, so- It was-you know.Yeah, not pretty for my client, but that was definitely a lesson learned.I hope for her as well.I don't know, but I don't know if she'll ever have an opportunity like that again, but hopefully she doesn't get in trouble anymore.But I don't know.It's justIt's also a cautionary tale now that you, I'm sure, tell all of your clients and that I tell clients of mine if they're in that situation, that you don't do that.Ironically, my second trial with you was also a deferred prosecution agreement offer, and we won that one.Yeah, that's true.That, that is true.It's not always a reflection of the case- Right.I would say, but, you know, having considered that the, for the first trial that we're talking about, that was all on video, and there was no legal argument.I'm sure if there was a legal argument, that maybe would've been maybe on your radar to outright dismiss it, uh, depending on what the legal argument was and the, if it was valid or not.But if a crime is on video and the State Attorney's office has already filed it, and they have no legal reason to dismiss it, they're not gonna just outright dismiss it.It makes no sense to do that, and you were basically offering to do that.Right.And so that was the best possible outcome aside from a not, like, the best one is a not guilty, yes, but the process of getting there is so long.Like, this is the best possible outcome without having to do this long, stressful process and risking doing it.You can only get it sealed.Yeah.You can't get it expunged.Yeah.So the best outcome is that dismissal plus the expungement.Right.ForAnd that's a, a Florida thing.you go all the way to a trial and you are found not guilty, you cannot get your record expunged.But like, why get that expunged?Which is like really, which is kind of ridiculous.Yeah.But I mean, I don't know.They should, they should freely do those.It should just be an automatic like expungement.Expungement, yeah, because like- Yeah.you were prove- You won.Like, yeah, you, d- they didn't prove that you were guilty and it's on- Right.the state to do that.But I've definitely changed my approach over the years, especially with experience and like dealing with so many different clients over the years, different types of clients, people in and out of custody, people who are dealing with like homelessness all the way to like wealthy clients.Like, there's just a range of people, but at the end of the day, we are all people and we experience the same things, and a lot of the issues intersect and come up, like s- the same issues intersect and come up in certain cases.Like, domestic.We see a lot of the same family issues over and over again.Yeah, it's different people, but the scenario is pretty much the same every time, whether it's a real battery occurred or not.So there's just so many different ways to actually deal with the client and what they're dealing with, and ultimately, the best way is to just give itHave straightforward, honest conversations upfront andMaking it clear that you are there to be their legal counsel.And also tell them that if the prosecutor is exercising their discretion in such a way that they're willing to- That's, yeah.like get rid of the case, that they are clearly seeing what you're telling them, which is this is either not as serious or the person doesn't, n- you know, deserve to be punished to a certain degree.Like whatever, whatever the situation is, but- Yeah.you know, you have- That's-a lenient prosecutor- Exactly.on a, on a situation.That's definitely a part of the conversation, saying that the, the prosecutor just like, let's even take it to another example where our clients maybe have their scoring on the score sheet.The only person that can depart without having to do a sentencing hearing or without risking, because the court can say, "Yeah, I find that you are eligible for downward departure and you don't have to serve this prison sentence, but I think you should still do it."And so that's, there's a discretionary component to it that it's too late at that point after the judge, after you've already plead guilty or y- you've already been found guilty, there's a portion where the judge can still say, "You know, you're going to prison.I think you should get minimum score, which is X amount of years in prison."Versus up front and you know like, okay, will this judge having practice in this county, like the experience matters.Your interaction with this prosecutor in past cases and seeing them on the daily basis, or whatever it is, it matters.It, it affects all of the cases that end up coming forward.Yeah, like I'm, I don't wanna make it, I don't wanna dismiss like facts of the case- Mm-hmm.and like how serious maybe the case is, but all those components do come in, and so if you are seeing that this is maybe a better offer considering the c- circumstances and the facts surrounding the case and maybe the evidence that was presented to you in discovery, and you do not have a legal argument or factual argument that's so strong, and the prosecutor's willing to amend the charges or depart from the guidelines or exercise their discretion and actually do something good for your client, that comes in the conversation where you're telling your client,"I understand you believe this is extreme, but this is a departure from what the ordinary is.It's n- this is unusual or this is not something that happens often, so you should consider this."And so that's definitely a conversation I have had with a lot of my clients.I think, and something that you touched upon a little bit earlier in this, in this episode is that the emotions of the attorney and adopting the emotions of your client and then going before the prosecutor or the judge with those emotions in one sense can be effective because if you're not somebody that is always emotional like that, a prosecutor that you interact with frequently is gonna say, "Whoa, whoa.Something is different here."Yeah.Or even a judge is gonna say, "Something is different here."Because there's definitely been cases where, because I don't get emotional on all my cases, but if I am emotional, I think that that based on the relationships I've developed with, um, prosecutors and judges- Worksshows that there's something up and there's- Mm-hmm.something different about that case.I have a situation now that when I was in court the other day, I was b- a little bit more fired up than I ordinarily would be, and that was I was signaling to both the court and the prosecutor, you know, my position is this strong because I feel this way and based on what you know of me, you should know, okay, there is something here going on.It's not, this is not puffery and this is not just him always getting emotional, uh, because of his clients, like you know, that he reacts the same way every time.No.That's not what it is.If I'm getting emotional, there is a specific reason.You need to pay attention, you need to hear what I'm saying, and act accordingly please because of that.Yeah.And that usually works in my clients' benefit.Yeah.And there's a difference between like passionate advocacy or zealous advocacy, which I think we both do- Right.on a regular basis, and then there's like versus like being emotional or like taking on the client's emotions.And so like, I just don't want it to like, people to think that, "Oh, like, uh, you know, you're on a regular basis.You always getBasically you're a paper pusher and you have your client sign pleas all the time."Like no.We care about the outcome- No, not at all.the best outcome f- for our clients.But we're not gonna put up a fight if it's frivolous.I don't need to have an aggressive conversation with the prosecutor every single time I talk to them.Especially when- I can have, uh, you know, like, normal, cordial, or even kind conversations with the prosecutor and get exactly what I need out of that, the same way that I would if I was, you know- I think- E- even more so- Yeah.than if I was being fakely emotional about it, or act genuinely emotional, you know.I agree.I think ifI think that yourThe way you present, in general, regular pleasantries I think make a difference, and being fake shows.I think, like, being a genuine good person, you don't have to be best friends with them.You don't have to agree with them.You can still effectively represent your client and say, "Good morning.How was your weekend?"Exactly right.And smile and have a nice conversation with them.There's no reason you can't do that- Especially when-and, and still get business done.Oftentimes- And you're gonna have cases with them again.And oftentimes, we're asking them for things.Right.So, like, I don't know.Like, imagine being disrespected by somebody all the time and then, like, one day, you have a really shitty case and you wanna go up to them and be like, "Can you please give my client, like, no prison time or jail?"And then they're gonna be like, "You can go F yourself," if they want to.You know?They could.So, I'm not saying that.I was in that situation.Yeah.And like, you- There was-definitely don't wanna-there is certain attorneys that are like that.You definitely- Yeah.don't wanna work with them as much as you would be willing to work with other attorneys who are- Correct.good lawyers and decent people.I didn't wanna work with them.I didn't goI didn't take it out on their clients, but I didn't go out of my way to do something beneficial for them or make their lives easier.Yeah.Just didn't do that.Why would you?Right.Exactly.So, if you like listening to the show, make sure you like, comment, and subscribe.Follow us on all platforms, Come Back With A Warrant dot pod, and make sure you subscribe to our newsletter, and if you didn't like listening to us- Come back with a warrant.I keep saying, forgetting to say 5star review.That's all right.You say it sometimes.Yeah.Leave a 5star review and come back with your warrant.Monica and Brandon break down real cases, viral legal moments, and the wild stories they've lived to see in courts.They teach everyday people their rights, unpack the justice system from both sides, and have the hard conversations most 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