Podcast Ep. 18 - The Human Cost of Incarceration: Lyric White on Turning Pain into Purpose

Welcome back to Come Back with a Warrant podcast.I'm Brandon Denitz.And I'm Monica Shack.Before we kick-start this week's episode, this is your reminder that this podcast is not legal advice.It's real, unfiltered and for entertainment purposes only.If you need to speak with a lawyer, call one.Or better yet, call us.Welcome back.Today, we have a very special guest, Lyric White.She is a devoted mother and wife with a powerful passion for justice, reform and redemption.Currently a senior at Florida Atlantic University majoring in criminal justice, Lyric brings both academic insight and lived experience to her work.Her commitment to this field is deeply personal, shaped by the challenges her own family has faced navigating the justice system.Drawing strength from her husband's incarceration and the impact it had on their lives, Lyric has transformed hardship into purpose.She uses her experience to advocate for meaningful change, championing prison reform, second chances and fair treatment for incarcerated individuals and their families.A dedicated voice for the unheard, Lyric is driven by a mission to ensure that no family is left without hope, dignity or justice.Welcome, Lyric.Thank you for having meWelcome.Thank you.Thank you for joining us.We're happy to have you.Yes.Um, we have a lot to talk about, I think, before we get started in, you know, we were even sitting here today.Um, you were a part of a re-entry program prior to any of your personal experience with the justice system.Is that right?Yes.So, um, maybe, like, we can just start from there.Like, how did you even get involved in re-entry?So originally, incarceration has kind of always been a part of my life.Not firsthand.Like family members, cousins, things like that.My cousin does run a nonprofit, and I joined her board.It was kind of just like, "Hey, I need people on my board that are gonna do whatever I say."So I was like, "Okay, fine."Joined with her and I would go to meetings, help her out, and, you know, I really had a passion for it, but I still had my own 9to5 and I couldn't devote as much as she could.And then my husband, everything happened with him and I kind of got a new sight of what it was really like, and that's how I kind of turned into where I am now.Yeah.So, like, what was your perspective before everything happened?Like, when you were involved in re-entry.It was rough for me, especially with the transitional housing.They're not in good areas where you're allowed to run one, so you have a lot of people that come home from prison and they're still battling addiction and the only place that they can live is right next to a drug house.So, they know they can step outside and they're gonna go get high again.We had one guy that actually, like, jumped out of the bathroom window at the transitional house because he went and got something and got high, so he wasn't allowed to stay.Um, a lot of things like that.There was one guy that actually got clean, was able to buy himself a car.You know, he maintained a job.So you see it from both angles.There are very good success stories, and then, you know, there are people that it's like, it's hard for them.Yeah.So, you never had, like, a personal experience with re-entry?No.My dad did go to prison a few times.He lived in Michigan and wasn't really a part of my life and would be, like, a year and day because he would get in trouble for, like, check- bad checks, things like that- Yeah.just trying to get high.But he didn't live here, so I didn't get to experience it firsthand.It was very much, like, out of sight, out of mind.Yeah.And if he was clean, I would hear from him and if he relapsed, you wouldn't hear from him until he was clean again.Or if he was in prison, then I'd get a letter.Um, but other than that, no.Not when it came to re-entry.Yeah.You, like, s- felt the effects of theLike, of him be- Yeah.like, being clean and then not.Yeah.Right, right.Which, now as an adult, um, I hear a lot of stories from people that, like, supported the habit or they're getting robbed by their son, their sister, brother, spouse, and it's like, you know what?I'm glad that I didn't witness any of that, in a way.You were protected- You know?Yeah.kind of.Yeah.Yeah.In a big way.I feel like he had a little bit of pride.He was able to, like, hide that side of him.Yeah.Wow.I'm grateful for it.He's no longer alive, but it's okay.That's great.He finally got clean and then he had heart failure from all the years of it.But yeah.Wow.Yeah.Uh, the, the re-entry program that you were firstUh, I guess that you're still associated with, is specific to prison release re-entry?Yes.Okay.So, I guess I always wonder because, you know, you have people that spend a significant amount of time in jail also, that even though it's less than a year when they get out, there's still that need for them- Yeah.to be put back in the community and get back their lives, or start developing, uh, a way for them to get back into society.So it's interesting to, to hear that it's, um, it's, uh, only h- only prisoners, but how long ago did you first get involved?So she, my cousin's been involved for, like, 5 years.I got involved later on once she actually had the transitional house.'Cause a lot of what it is, is resources.Leaning on other people, you know, making partnerships."Hey, I can refer you to this person.This person can do this for you."For example, housing.The housing has to come from somebody else willing to pay for you to stay in the transitional housing.So somewhere like The Lord's Place, Gulf Stream Goodwill, they're paying to put you in that house.My experience, we wouldn't ever turn anyone away, but most people coming out of jail, they're notNot having somewhere to stay or live, you know?Clothes, things like that, we will give, but we find that people have more of a need that are coming home from prison.Yeah.But we do help them.It's, we would never say no.Right.But if they call and they're like, "Hey, do you know anybody that can offer a job?"Like, one of the peoples that she, one of the people she was really connected with was a regional manager for Dunkin' Donuts, so she was able to get people jobs- Cool.at Dunkin' Donuts.Things like that.You know, it's just really making partnerships, 'cause it's more of, like, resources.Right.And you're talking about bringing in most likely convicted felons to be- Yeah.re-entered into society and the idea of making sure that they have gainful employment and criteria, because a lot of these people, correct me if I'm wrong, have criteria that they have to meet in order to be out and remain out.And to avoid getting in trouble, you've gotta- Yeah.get, get on the right path.So, these programs are so important.That's great that they have the, the job resources, because I imagine that's gotta be the number 1 Yeah.aside from housing, the number one issue has got to be the jobs.Right.And then housing, they're only paying for you to stay there for maybe 60 days at the most.That's temporary.From that point on, you are able to pay for yourself to remain there.We've had that before where the guy that got a job, he was able to pay for himself to stay there.Wow.That's amazing.You know.It just- Yeah, it's amazing.It just- And what's the name of the program?It's The Victory Program.Yeah.Well, and we're gonna have Victoria, who's the founder of The Victory Program, hopefully on another episode.But thank you so much for the work that you do in, in The Victory Program and, uh, in our community 'cause that's super important.And, like, hopefully we can continue, like, expanding and contributing in the ways that, you know, we can in the community, so.But I also wanted to talk obviously more about your s- personal story, um, and your background with your husband.You chose to study, c- correct me if I'm wrong, you chose to study at FAU before all this.Right?Or during?Okay.I was actually enrolled at Palm Beach State.Um, I was gonna get my bachelor's in health management.I do work in healthcare.And, um, the way the trial and everything happened, I was like, "I'm done."I dropped out of the program.Oh.I actually had to pay them back because I had taken, I had got my grant, and I was just like, "This isn't for me."No, I understand.And then I enrolled at FAU and I'm actually finishing, like, half of a semester early.Oh, my gosh.Just because I was just kind of bucking into it.Yeah.Wow, that's amazing.That's great.Thank you.Um, so when, so tell us, like, what happened in terms of your, like, how this basically unfolded in your life.Like, what went down here?So in 2021, my husband was involved in an incident.It was a shooting between, amongst 2 people, self-defense case.Um, in the State of Florida you have to try stand your ground.If that doesn't work, you're going before a jury and you leave it up to the jury to figure out how they rule.That's kind of what happened here.My husband was sentenced under 10-20 life to a mandatory minimum of 20 years.Um, prior to that, he was shot during the incident 13 times and after that, life was kind of focused in, focused on him recovering, so he was in the hospital for 2 months.One month of that was him in, actually in a coma.After that, it was he had to learn to walk again.He had a feeding tube for a very long time, so he lost a lot of weight, was very skinny, couldn't have any food by mouth because he had a trach.So just was in a very unhealthy state.He was able to come s- happen in September.Right before Thanksgiving happened, he was about, he was ready to come home and he got to come home and I remember being terrified 'cause I went to go pick up his medicine on the first day and they were like, "We have to teach you how to administer Narcan if something was to happen."So I was just, like, traumatized.I was like, "I don't think, like, how can I do this?"You know?He was sent home on 12 medications.Oh, my gosh.So it was just a very, very- Yeah.hard situation overall and prior to any of this, I wanted to be a nurse.Like, I literally- Oh, my God.worked at a hospital my first job, at a trauma hospital.I was like, "I love all of this."And then seeing it firsthand I was like, "Absolutely not."So he got healthy, he was able to get back on track with life, got a jo- got a job again.Um, we had a baby, and about 2 years later, sheriffs were knocking on our door with a warrant for his arrest.In the middle of that time, we had no idea that anything was going on, you know, that he was being looked at as the bad guy in this.Um, and yeah.So we went through court.It was a very rough situation for me, just kind of, like, seeing how things play out.Um, and so, yeah.Yeah.For sure.That's, like, uh, it's, like, there's, there's so many layers to it, but it's even more, like, I think shocking because it was like there was a time period where you guys were, like, literally recovering from this incident and moved on finally.Like, you finally had your baby and, like, life was, like, looking good again.Yes.And then suddenly, it's like, "What?"Mm-hmm.So when you said 13 times, like, what, can you talk a little bit more about- Yeah.like, what happened?So he was in the car.When he got shot, he was in the car trying to leave the scene.He shot first.The other guy was holding his gun, clutching on the gun.My husband shot first, jumped in the car to leave.The car that he had at the time, I have it now, so I know what happened.If you don't- Mm-hmm.'Cause the first time I drove, I was like, "What?"If you don't put the car in park and the door is open, it's gonna go into emergency brake and the car stalls.And that's what happened, so he did not get away.And the guy emptied his full clip into the vehicle.So imagine if you're sitting in a car and somebody comes up to the window and the door and completely shoots it.So he was shot from the leg up, um, 13 times.He suffered minor injuries, so he had to have a full Whipple.His face, he has permanent paralysis in his face.He's completely deaf in the left ear.Just, like, a lot of things, um, a lot of injuries.And then he wasn't able to get away.The other car, they got away, and they took their friend to the hospital.All these people were once friends, so I think in court how it kinda played out is the only evidence, the only thing that was against him, is statements.And at the end of the day, when it's 4 against one, no matter how many times their story changed or any of that, you know, that's ultimately what it came down to, is how I feel.Yeah.Despite the injuries, is what you're saying?Yeah.Yeah.Despite everything.It actually went- Because the other person sounds like they didn't get injured like ins- It- he had a broken clavicle.From- And it was, like, one shot?That is just- that is shocking to me, but, like, obviously it's not that I don't believe it or anything.It's just, like- it's just crazy that that's something that- it's- because there's always, you know, the instructions that say, like, the qua- it's not the quantity of the evidence- Mm-hmm.it's the quality of evidence.And you probably sat through the whole trial- Yeah.and watched it, I'm assuming.And I don't- like when you say, "quantity" and "quality," I think- um, 'cause a lot of my friends came, and I would ask them, like, "Take him, being my spouse, take him out of it."Like, you hearing all this, like, h- how- Yeah, what do you think?how do you perceive this?What do you-" and all of them are like, "No," like, "he does not deserve this."And it's like, even down to the stand your ground hearing versus how much their statements- obviously, the closer you get to trial, everybody's- Cleans it up.their story is all the same.Prior to that, nobody had the same story.It was a mess.And that was actually what the detective said.In the beginning, she couldn't make an arrest because nobody had the same story.That wa- came out during trial?Yeah.That was in her statement.That was- a- even in one of the d- videos we re- got during discovery.The guy was like, "I just don't understand, I don't understand, I don't understand."I'm goin-, "Y- you don't understand what?Why?Nobody has the same story?"You know, and he was like, "If they would just "and he would freeze, like, "If they would just "like that, when she was telling him, "I can't do anything, because nobody has the same story."And then one guy was actually able to come in 9 months later and give a statement.So 9 months after the fact, which nobody in their first statement mentioned him being there at all.Not one time.Whether it was the victim or the other people that were there, the witnesses, nobody said he was there.9 months later, he was able to say he was there.And one time, the victim did tell a officer, um, "I tried to convince him to come, but he doesn't wanna be involved."And he was like, "But I told him if he's my friend, you know, he has to do this."And the guy didn't come in, and didn't come in, and then 9 months later, he showed up, and his story was the only one that kind of corroborated with the victim's.And, like, they didn't take y- your husband's statement;they just came and arrested him.No, they gave him a statement.So in the hospital, they took a statement, and then after the detective was like, "I'm gonna meet you to give you your belongings," obviously she says, "I have a warrant for your DNA," and then, "Do you wanna tell me anything?"That was it.And then she was asking him about that one person the 9 months later, "You don't remember this person being there?"He's like, "No, I don't remember this person being there."And she asked, like, 3 times.Again, we're not knowing any better.We've never been in trouble with the law.So we're just like, "You know, this is gonna be what it is."Yeah."And you're gonna hear my story, and that's it."Not knowing any better.Still, time went on, and that's how it happened.And so you talked a little bit about the legal procedure of what happened to follow.Mm-hmm.So just to explain a little bit further, a stand your ground hearing is before a court, before a judge, and it's a mini-trial, right, where they present evidence.The defense files this motion, presents the evidence that this person was standing their ground, i.e. defending themselves, which means it- it was justifiable use of force, deadly force or non-deadly force, and if you present your case, and the state has to rebut this.And so oftentimes, especially with serious, more serious cases, whether it's, um, like, an attempted murder or an aggravated battery with a deadly weapon, judges are more inclined, I think, to deny these types of hearings because of, like, kind of the- the risk that is associated with that charge.Um, but when it comes to trial- and that's another thing.It's, like, really has a lot to do with the jury, and so it's a lot of the same evidence that's presented, and I think, Lyric, that's what you're referring to when you're talking about, like, the different statements.Like- Mm-hmm.sounds like the stand your ground was a little bit more inconsistent than the actual trial.Yeah, I- so with the stand your ground, I think things were presented a little bit better, but a jury's not there to see it.The judge did rule, um, although he wasn't able to use stand your ground, that he was able to claim self-defense.So, you know, at the time, we're thinking, okay, you know, maybe he sees something.One of the things I do have a big problem with is the lack of discretion the judges are allowed to have within this, um, when it comes to the mandatory minimums.So once you pass that stand your ground state, then it's like, okay, the judge- even if he heard all of this and he doesn't- there's nothing he can do.With sentencing?Well, because of the- Right, because we admit- there's mandatory sentencing, um, in a case like this that- that's where that 20 years comes into play, because the gun went off and struck somebody during the course of committing an offense.So that's where we get the 10, 20 life.Yeah.And that's unfortunate because yeah, that- the discretion of the judge at sentencing is- is done.Mm-hmm.And it's like, you know, it's not to justify or say, but I think when you weigh everything of this case and you hearyou know, even the 13 versus the one, and it's not to say one is right, one is wrong, or anything- Yeah.like that.first offense, your first time ever.It just, to me, it's insane that this personAnd technically it should have been 25 if we're- Yeah.following the law, but- Yeah.the jury found that he did not cause any permanent damage or bodily injury.Inj- significant injury, yeah.Yeah.Excuse me.I, I think misspoke.I think the 10, 20, life, life is the if you strike them while in the incident.So this must have just, the jury must have just found that the gun- Went off, but he didn't cause-went off, but he didn't cause any serious bodily injury.Okay.So that's where the 20 comes in as opposed to it being an even worse situation.So he was able to get sentenced to 20, but it just, it kinda sucked because, you know, like, just sitting back and being a judge, like I c- I, I don't know about other judges, but if I was in his shoes, you know, and you hear all this, it almost seems like'Cause technically if he, what he scored out to, I think, was like, I think 8 years?Yeah.Like somethingAnd it's like, okay, that seems more understandable, whereas if this person is a career criminal and he shot 5 people, I under- okay, 20 years.You know?Like, that's justifiable.I think that's okay, but I just, I hate the fact that, like, the discretion is not there, because not every case is black and white, so when you put a mandatory minimum on this, it kinda just, like- Um.makes it crappy.So in terms of the, like, going through the process, and I know, like, for you, like, you felt like maybe you were biased because you, this is your husband, right?Mm-hmm.You're like- Yeah."Maybe I'm not seeing something."Yes.Someone tell me what is going on.Yeah.You know?Is he really, does he really seem as guilty- Mm-hmm.as the state is painting this picture?So, w- like, in terms of, like, the process, 'cause this is, uh, um, I don't know, how, how long was it that you guys were dealing with this, like, pre-trial?So he was, he actually got released on house arrest, um, that was a nightmare within itself, but he was on hou- house arrest for about a year.So when he got arrested, I think it was January.The following year is kinda when we went to trial in February.Okay.So it was about a year.So about a year.I, in my opinion, I think it happened really fast, 'cause- Yeah.I think there's some cases that are, like- Take longer.U- for sure.Like drug cases.There are, there are- Yeah.way less serious cases- Yeah.that I know of right now that are going on- Longer.Yeah.for longer than that, yeah.And then it's like, you hear other, when you tell other people, they're like, "Oh my God, he was sacrificial lamb," and da da da da, you know?They just wantI'm like, "Oh, okay, just leave me alone."Yeah.You're like, "I don't wanna hear this."Oh, yeah.Yeah.You ask the wrong person, they're gonna tell you there's a conspiracy theory- Yeah.it happened, right?Yeah.Which is not the case, but- Yeah.Right.But, you know, there's so many depos that happen.There's a lot of investigating, going to the crime scene, like, the- Even down to that, like, the depo.So I promise you, it's like, their initial statements, the depo that our attorney did, the stand your ground, down to trial.Every statement w- it was a different statement every time, and nobody's statement matched 'til we got to trial, and even then, there were still some discrepancies.But again, that's, And they're like, "Oh, well, you know, it was 5 years ago."Yeah, and you give it to a jury, and I think a lot of, when it comes down to the juries, like, a lot of it is perception, you know?You hear guns, you hear stuff, and it's, like, automatically, this is a bad guy.One lady was falling asleep, literally, like, nodding off the whole time, and we're, like, telling them, like, "She's falling asleep.She's not paying attention," you know?I think just seeing the people that we w- were getting as- Jurors.possible jurors, I'm like, "Oh my God."Yeah.You don't wanna see- You know?It's a nightmare.other people untrusting with my- So any time I have-own son.a friend there, like, "I don't wanna go," I'm like, "You better go."Yes."You have to go."Yeah."This is why it's important.""Like, you saw this happen to me.You have to go."Yeah.You know?I, I, we had a jury selection episode, and I was like, "The people that don't wanna, like, go to-" Mm-hmm." jury, jury duty are what's wrong with the world."Yeah.Because this, I feel the same way.I feel so deeply about it.I'm like, it triggers me when I see people falling asleep- Yeah.in, in jury selection.It was mostly older women, and you know, they probably are retired.Yeah.And this is like- They can't relate- Yeah.This is-to this life.You know?And that's the thing, so it was considered to be, like, Black on Black crime.We didn't have one Black person on our juror.It's not a juror of your peers.We didn't have one young person, and it's like, I know people think that that doesn't matter that much, but- It does.We- That's the point.You win and lose, you win and lose trials with a jury.I mean- Yeah, you know, so like, it- I mean, you really, you really can.And the whole start of, like, all of them getting together was, like, to mourn a friend, so it's like, you know, obviously there's liquor and there's weed involved, but it's like, you, these old ladies are likeYeah, and, like, liquor and weed?Yeah.somebody just died, like that's, you know.And it's like that's just what young people do, I guess.I don't know, you know?Right.You know, it's like it's, it's crappy but the reality of things is just like people don't realize really what goes into it and seeing it firsthand, like that's what really woke me up.That's what made me just be like, "Oh my God."Like, just how easy this happened to me, like, I can see how other people get railroaded or just end up with like really crappy sentences.And you know, and it's not to say like even in the work I do, there are people that do deserve to be in prison and deserve to be there for a long time.I am an advocate and I will always advocate but like I'm not gonna just say free everybody out of prison.No.You know?Like, I'm realistic, you know?I do think that there just needs to be things in moderation to like discretion.think it's really important.How was like the process with, like, pre-trial for you and for him?Like, negotiations with the state and then seeing kind of- Oh.you know, the ass- so, like, seeing what the offer was and like the risk and making that decision and like, you know, going through that process kinda behind the scenes 'cause oftentimes we are the kinda bearer of bad news.Right.You know?And we're like, "Hey, you know, this is what you're facing.If you lose, this is the minimum."And, you know, "The state is offering this.It's not what we wanted-" Mm-hmm." But it's better than the worst case scenario or the best case scenario if we lose."So we, the defense attorney, us, anybody that we talked to that saw everything in the case would hear the stories.Like, everybody was just like, "No, you have a really good chance at self-defense.This is a really goodIt's 50/50, but I believe that this is strong."'Cause I'd be like, "Give it to me blood raw.Like, if you think that he was 100% wrong and wasn't defending himself, like tell me.Don't let, lead me to believe that we have a chance at this."And it was very much like, "No, this is 50/50."And, um, and I understand, like, a prosecutor's job is to protect and abide by what the victim wants.I understand that.And I really, I've been saying victim but I wanna say alleged victim.I'm gonna- So I say alleged victim.You can say alleged victim.Yeah.I did.I'm like, "Ugh."I say alleged victim all the time.Um, but, and I understand that, especially withI get all of that.But I think also too here, what I, what would aggravate me about this is like, okay, as a prosecutor it's like you're able to see both sides of things.You should be able to.Be like, yeah, like basically- BFFR."Okay, give us a reasonable plea."'Cause he wasSo the plea on the table was 10 years, uh, um, in prison, 5 years on paper, and he was willing to do 5.And, and he didn't evenAnd that was me, like basically like, "Okay, what is the lowest that you, like, what would you be willing to accept?"And my friend says, "I don't wanna do any time."You know, like, it's understandable.And I would say like, "Okay, we have to come up with a number."And he was just like, "I really just don't think I deserve to go to prison."Like, you get what I'm saying?And I was like, "I understand but, okay, we need to be realistically."So we were willing to do 5.They wouldn't budge because the alleged victim wasn't willing to budge.Who was his old friend.He wanted him to go to prison?Yes.And one of the guys actually, so like the person that called him there, uh, is, he's the one that called 911, didn't ever say that my husband was there, didn't say there was another person.He said it was a drive-by shooting.Never mentioned that there- 'Cause he didn't, he didn't know who to snitch on.He never- He didn't wanna snitch on anybody.Right.Never admitted that there was a person there dying.It was in a neighborhood so the neighborhood actually are the ones that rendered aid to my husband and, called the ambulance for him.That guy said it was a drive-by shooting.They didn't know who the other people were.You know, he wanted no involvement and then later on, just like everybody's story just kinda like turned around.Just he was high out of his mind when he, on his stand your ground, like his deposition he was like nodding off and they were like, "Are you okay?""I took oxycodone."And, I'm just like, "This can't be for real.Like, this is what we're going through right now, you know?"And it's just like, how do we perceive these people as credible at all?In any shape or form, you know?So I kinda just was aggravated, like that the prosecution just seeing everything for what it is.Like, you know, be reasonable.I think a lot of prosecutors lack a backbone- Mm-hmm.when it comes to dealing with victims, and I think they probably get more deferent as the crimes get more serious.Mm-hmm.But at the same time, like what you're saying, it's like, do you see what's in front of you?Yeah, and it's like I, if this guy was so f- like, in my opinion, you were so fearful you ran at him to go empty your clip into him.If I'm scared I'm running- 13 times.away.And he really shot 15.2 of them didn't hit him 'cause he emptied his whole entire clip.So, you shot to kill.You get what I'm saying?I don't think the average person that's scared is gonna do that.I think they're gonna run away.I don't think I'm gonna charge at the person that I'm scared of.Yeah.You know what I'm saying?There was a lot of other, like, factors that I was just like, "Okay, so we're not gonna bring this up."You know?They were all drinking prior.My husband wasn't.They were drinking prior to my husband getting there.Those things were not brought up?Yeah, there was text messages where they were saying, "F that N-word," talking about my husband.You know, things that it's like, that was just like turn a blind eye.Nobody cared.And soWas that presented at trial?Yeah.A lot of things come down to like the jury.Yeah.Like it really is the makeup of the jury- Mm-hmm.because the things you're saying it's like, I don't know how this- Yeah.this was the result.And that's why I'm like, it's important to have a real jury of your peers and this means, like, people that either come from the same background or even in the same age group.It doesn't even have to take race out of it.Just like same age group, at least something, you know?And it's like, I know that they can onlyWork with who shows up.I understand that too.But I don't, I think that it's so important to get a good jury.Or just a r- at least reasonable.Yeah.Because at the end of the day, then you get this, and you're stuck with whatever the outcome is, and yeah, you have the chance to appeal it, but realistically, not many, how many people get relief from appeals?You know what I'm saying?Like, it's, it's not often, and that's the stage that we're in now, and it's like even with the direct appeal, I think there's a 1% chance of you getting relief from that.And even your relief is to be placed back in the same position- Yeah.you were once were, which is not- Just hoping to get a better deal.Yeah.Right.To get a better deal, or- Or a better tri- different trial, or, right?Yeah.But I told them, you know, we did lose the direct appeal, and I was like, "If we come back on the 30, 50, like, I'm not, you better just take whatever they are willing to do," because now, you know, we have our son, we have gone through this once.I don't wanna live through that again.And one of the things that I think about now is, if he would've taken the 10, realistically, you would have done 8 with good behavior, and you would be in your son's life at 8 Mm-hmm.as opposed to when your son is 20.Yeah.You get what I'm saying?So that was like the biggest thing for me.Yeah.But you don't know any better at the time.No.You're thinking that people are gonna hear this- Yeah.and they're gonna see it for what it is, and everything's gonna be okay.Yeah.Yeah.It's also not easy to think about a decade- Yep.of time, and that you would be agreeing to a decade of time- Yeah.behind bars is not something that's an easy thought for anybody.I know I've had conversations where, and I, I've spoken to Monica, I had a case, and I had a client that wound up accepting an offer to 20 years, and he scored 44 years, and it was a very different situation.But the concept of sitting down and having a conversation with somebody about spending decades of pr- time in prison is one of the more difficult conversations that in, that we- Yeah.have in our jobs, and probably one of the most difficult conversations I've ever had with somebody because there's no way to, uh, there's no way to relate.Mm-hmm.And there's also no way to make the situation better than what it is at that point- Mm-hmm.because that's, that's what you're facing.You know, in the case that I had and in your husband's case, that is, the law is that that many years is applicable.It's got, you know, the prosecutor standing up and saying how much time, or the defense attorney standing up and saying how much time, or the judge.It's not relevant, it's not important because the statute is what it is.But that's so difficult to, you know, be on the family side and sit there and have to live through all that.That's a, that's a brutal process, and I can't even imagine as a spouse, you know, first of all, the strength it takes for you to be able to sit through all of that and, you know, now carry the mantle of your family is, is just, you know, really props to you because that's, it takes a very strong person to be able to do that and to be able to carry on.And also, to be able to work in the field that is related to what you went through is, is a really, really powerful thing.I, I, uh, never spoken about it on this show before, but I have a relative that has been incarcerated before, and I'm not particularly close with that relative, but the, it's an immediate member of my family and, like, IUh, the idea of being a family member in that position, there are so many emotions that you go through, whether it's the, you know, fear or sadness or your own guilt in the situation for whatever reason, um, is, is a lot to deal with and a lot to bear.Um, it takes a very strong person to be able to do what you're doing, so- Same.Yeah, that's-you know, that's just very important to- Thank you.to say and, and mention.Yeah.For sure, I actually participated in therapy not too long ago, and it was, um, through another non-profit, 300 Letters, and it was basically for the caregivers of children with an incarcerated parent.Um, so I participated in that, and one of the sessions was about, um, having any type of, like, resentment, and I was like, "No, not at all."And then, I think later on in the night, I was just like, "I think I do," you know?And I wasn't realizing it, and I told him, and I was just like, "Now, being where we are, like, I just wish you would have taken the deal."You know?But at that time, when you're thinking, and it's likeAnd I would tell him, "I can't force you to make any decision because I'm not gonna be the one doing that time."So, I can't say, "Hey, this"And then it's like, what if he did take the ten and w-we woulda had a different set of juries and- jurors, and he would've gotten free, you know?Like, you don't know how the cards are gonna roll out.So, it sucks.So then, I c- I just had a talk with him about it and I was like, "Listen, you know, if we get any type of relief, like, we're not going to trial."Yeah."Just want you to know, like, you're taking whatever they give you-" Yeah." and that's it."Hindsight's always 20/20.Mm.It's always easier to say, you know- Yeah."Looking back now, I would've, you knowWe should've done this."But there was no way for you to know.You guys did the best what, like, with what you had.Right.SoAnd you don't know when you've never been in trouble.You've never had run-in.You never needed a lawyer for anything.Like, you just don't know, you know?You don't know at all.Yeah.How has, like, life been for you since this?I will say, despite obviously having, I think in this economy you need a 2person household- Yeah.with 2 jobs.I do have 2 jobs, but I think it's really important toLike, I now have a son, and I'm like, it's hard to raise a boy to be a man.He's only 2, but I think about, okay, 20 years.How am I gonna raise him to be a good man?I don't want him to be a mama's boy.I don't wanna enable him.You know, there are certain things, and I'm like, he needs a man for that.As much as people think, like, oh, moms can do it all.Like, no.I think especially with boys, like, they need that male figure.Despite that, I think life has been really good to me besides missing him.You know, I've grown within my profession.I've still been able to maintain my home, my kids.You know, whereas a lot of people don't have the ability or, you know, life could have really knocked me down.Yeah.But I just kindaYou have to keep going.I do have kids, and I can't give up.I can't let my life fall apart, you know?Like, I have to just be strong.So, I just had no choice but to.Yeah.And also for him, you know?Like, he's stuck in there all day, and so, it's like, sometimes, he's like, "Oh, you know, I know that you, like, hold it all together and you never wanna tell me you're going through anything."But it's like, I don't want to burden how I feel on him, either, because he has nothing to do but go back and sit on his bunk andThink about basically what everybody else is talking about.Yeah.Right.And, you know, fight within himself.And it's like, you know, we're already in such, like, crappy circumstances.It's like, you know, we justWe talk about things and stuff like that, but I don't try to, like, put it onAnd honestly, I don't think about it in a negative way.Like, I just, I try to keep faith and hope that, like, this is gonna turn around for the better good.You know, he's gotten, which hasI know there is, like, a stereotype that a lot of people go to prison and then they find their faith and, you know, they get closer to God.So, that's happened for him.Yeah.UmNothing wrong with that.Yeah.He's trying to actually go to college through there, through Miami-Dade.So, likeAmazing.I'm just like, "Hey, if that's what itIfLook."Do what you can while- Yeah.Yeah, do what you can.Take advantage of the opportunities.So, I'm just likeYou know, 'cause it's harder to go through school when you're home and you're working and you have kids.Like, I'm doing it, you know?So, it's like, just do what you can while you're there.You know, whereas, I feel like, statistically, on average, somebody that got sentenced to 20 years, they're not gonna go in and be a good person.No.And be good and notNo, you know?Like, that just goes to show the kind of person he is.Like, he has had 0 involvement with gangs.He's notHe says to me all the time that, like, the older guys are always like, "I've never met anybody young that literally acts the way you act, like you carry yourself like an old man," 'cause he's just not into drama.He's not doing anything, you know?He does what heAnd he's found himself, likeYou know, like, the law clerks and the guys that do the legal work, you know?And that really has evolved for him.So, he's making the best of it for what he has.So, I'm grateful that- Sounds like you have too.Yeah.Yeah, for sure.That's amazing.Hopefully, the appeal comes back.I'm like- Hopefully.praying.Thank you.So, uh, one thing I did wanna touch upon is that you said there is still currently an appeal going on, and you mentioned that there, there was previouslySo, when everything first happened, you did a, a, an appeal and that was unsuccessful.You've done another appeal now that's pending.So, we're in the process of whereRight now, his appellate attorney is working on all the grounds for the 38-50.That's in process of being the next appeal.It hasn't technically been filed yet, but right now, he's looking for all the grounds.The direct appeal, because it was unsuccessful, he's kind of now, what he's doing is, like, the law clerks are really helping him 'cause he's, likeYou know, a lot of times, and even our trial attorney, like, these guys sometimes know more and better than the guys, us, like, us representing you at trial court 'cause this is what they're doing day in and day out.So, right now, he's just been working with the law clerks to try to find every possible ground that he can for the next type of relief because once, you knowThat's, that's your last chance unless you go to the higher courts.Um, I don't know if people have re- some success from that.I don't know.What have youAnd if you don't wanna answer this, I totally understand, we can just skip over it.But, like, what have you talked to your son about, like, this situation?So, he's onlyHe just turned 3 recently.I think I said 2 earlier.Yeah.I'm a liar.He doesn't know.Yeah.Yesterday, he actually was telling me and my daughter.He was like, "My daddy is a police officer, and he's gonna arrest you guys."I'm like, "Oh, quite the opposite."But he was like, um, "He's a blue police officer," 'cause you know they wear the blue suits.Right.And I was like, "Okay, whatever."That's so funny.But he's 3, you know?Yeah.He doesn't know.My daughter, she knows.She doesn't change anything, you know.She has the best time when she goes there.Yeah.He is at a better facility, so he is allowed to, like, play soccer.They have toys.We can play football, certain things that it's like, you don't have that luxury at other facilities.So, I am very grateful for that.Yeah.Because, you know, you're not just confined to sitting inside- Yeah.and staring at each other.You do get to get outside and get active, butI don't want you to think that that's the reality of it- Yeah, it's not.Yeah.So yeah.We are just grateful for him to be out there.How old's your daughter?She's 9.Oh, okay.Yeah.So she is older.Yeah.Um, and so theyYou don't, like, youDo you feel like you want- She, likeSo, like, the story she kind ofSh- she doesn't know the time.She does not know how long.She constantly is like, "Well, when is he coming home?"And I'm like, "I don't know."And then, you know, she asks, "Why is he there?"And I was just like, "I'm gonna leave that for him to tell you."And then when she asked him, he's like, "Ask your mom."That's funny.So it's, like, one of those things.She leaves it alone.Um, we always say she's like a flower child;she doesn't reallyEverything's like, "Oh, la-di-da."She doesn't care.She likes to go because of vending machines.Yeah.She wants to have the snacks- She's just a kid.Yeah, right.She could care less, you know?What would you tell other families that are, like, maybe going through that process, like, actively?Like, similar to what you went through.I would say you have to definitely hold onto faith and strength- Mm-hmm.whether it's for yourself, your children, or even for your spouse.Like, you, the both of you, and it could be roles reversed or even a mother and a son, like, you have to be one.And it's not always gonna be you're strong in that moment, you know?You may break and you may need the other person to uplift you.But I think acting as one is very important and just lifting each other up and being the strength of the other person when the other person isn't able to, I think it's really important because if you don't have a strong mind, even for him, if you're not strong minded, like, you won't survive.Yeah.You know, and I think that's why a lot of people do look to drugs on there because you don't have strength, you don't have any of that, you don't wanna feel what you're feeling, so you're gonna look for something else.So I would say that's the strongest point, and just don't give up.Like, you, you can't, and life isn't always butterflies and rainbows.Yeah.It does suck sometimes, but I think as long as y- you try and you keep fighting.You know, and even if we do lose the appeal, which I don't want to say that or, you know- Yeah.um, think that that's reality, I don't, I wouldn't give up on my driver and my passion because it's like I justWhen I got into this what, really pushed me to kind of advocate in the level that I am now is I went to the Palm Beach County Reentry Summit and just hearing some of the st- I cried every day.They had a speaker.Everybody's story made me cry and I was just like, "This is what I want to do."You know?Um- Mm-hmm.Probably not gonna leave my 9to5 because that's where I make my money, but you just hear so many stories and, like, a lot of crappy things happen to people- Yes.and they made it out and they survived and they've turned their life around and, you know?I know that's not everybody's story, but there are a lot of stories- Yes.that are success stories and they have been able to redeem themself and they aren't their sentence, you know?Yeah.I think that's what really made it more real for me, is just seeing, like, so many other people's story- Yeah.being similar.That you're not alone in this.Right.And a part of the conversation that I have with my clients sometimes is saying like, you know, "This is notLike, I know it's so hard to grasp, like, what I'm telling you, but, like, if you just zoom out just a little bit, this, there is life after this."Mm-hmm."And as long as I'm telling you that, like, it's not a life sentence.You know what I mean?""You're not gonnaYou're not in there forever."It just, it'sThose conversations are just so hard to have, and, like, because you, like, just exactly what Brandon was saying, like, you can only relate so much but you're also b- bearing the news.So it's just a lot to, to carry.But since his incarceration, or sentence I should say, have you, like, grown a passion towards, like, prison reform?Yes.I think aside from being involved with reentry, I actually got involved with another reentry nonprofit through school.I had to do an internship, so I found another one.He actually offered me a position through there, so- Okay.now I'm with 2.Um, but I would say my heart, because I'm going through it now, is definitely within the prison system.Think there is such a lack of everything within our prison system.There's no true rehabilitation.The only way for you to rehabilitate is ifAnd that's not to say everybody needs it, 'cause sometimes it is a one-time mistake andI mean, you make mistakes every day, all day.At work you may mess up.Does that cost youYou know, sometimes it may cost you your job if it's a big one, but I don't think it costs you, like, so many years away from your life.And not to say that these 2 things are the same, but one mistake doesn't define you and doesn't- Yeah.say you need rehabilitation.Of course.No, but I do think that our system lacks that- Yeah.Yeah.Um, especially for people that are repeat offenders.That's another thing I hate from the mandatory minimums, is there's people in there with life sentences under PRR.Yeah.Never killed anybody.Yeah.Never taken a life, never done anything, like never even caused harm to somebody.Because of sentencing enhancements.Yeah.We've talked about that before.It's just- And i- it's crappy, and that's another thing where I don't know how much discretion there is there, 'cause I've never witnessed that first time.So it's like, it's crappy, you know?And then it's like just recently, um, the secretary, Ricky Dixon, went up and said how he needs, like, all this money basically for Department of Corrections to survive, go any further because it's falling apart, and the staff, they're low, um, low on staff.And aside from that, it's just they can't maintain.They cannot continue to go on the way that they are going.But it's like, okay, so why don't we truly rehabilitate these people so they don't come back?We give them real resources, we give them real skill, we give them something so that they don't come back.Because realistically, some people go into prison and they're worse than when they went in- Yeah.Right.because, you know- Right.you know, you learn to survive.You have toSome people feel like they have to join a gang.Some people feel like, "Well, you know, my kids are out here alone, I have to sell drugs in here."You know, some people genuinely feel that way and it's unfortunate, but that's what we're teaching them.Like that's what we're allowing to go on there- We're, yeah.not to say that's going on, like, because of it's being allowed, but that is what's going on.Yeah.You know, I think that rehabilitation, and I know it is allIt's punishment first- Yeah.rehabilitate after, but there is no true rehabilitation going on in my opinion.Yeah, IIt's, it's frustrating when you hear, like, prosecutors say that case law, because it's like, it's 2025, well, almost 2026 and, like, we have moved on.Like, the times have changed, we have more information now.Yeah.And, like, clearly what we're doing is not working and we're enabling, we're enabling worse behavior.Mm-hmm.Like, we're enabling bad behavior and then the worse behavior that is, like, n- making the entire cycle vicious.So I just, I completely agree with you and I, you know, it'sThe, the answer is that it's because it's not, that's not the way- Mm-hmm.that they're, the, the state is set up to make money.It's all about- And the numbers, so that was part of his statement too, is like, the number of people incarcerated, but it's like, okay, we haveMajority of the individuals incarcerated are geriatric.A lot of them have life sentences.Some of them, yeah, they maybe not, may not deserve to get out, I'm not gonna say that they do.There are some that they're in the infirmary and it looks like they've, they're already on their deathbed.Yeah.Let these people go home, free up some of these beds.You get what I'm saying?Like, the number of people that are in there and- The resources, yeah.life sentences, and it's just like that's where most of DOC's money is going.Yeah.To these patients, whether it's medical care, anything like that.Like, and then it's being taken from other areas or it's not being applied in other areas like education.I think education is huge, 'cause how are you gonna get a job if you can't read or write?How do you fill out an application?You know, there's certain things- They don't set you up for any of that.there's such a huge lack of.And if you go tour or you hear about a facility that goes into the prison they're gonna tell you they do all of that.The best place in the world.It's Disney World.Yeah.You know, "We help them with job placement, we help them with, do that."Okay, you know, that's not real.It's not, it's not really how it's happening, unfortunately.Well, you, I mean, you do clean up your house before you have visitors come over.Yeah.So, I mean, that is the way.You're not gonna show off the worst- Yeah.when you have visitors over but, yeah, the point, the point remains.It's notThe actual day-to-day there is not sunshine and- Right.rainbows as I like to say.Yeah.Another thing I forgot to say is when we did lose trial, the bailiff actually walked us out and he was like, "I'm so sorry, and I feel so sorry for you guys."And he was like, "But anything that I've ever"And he heard it from start to finish.But I want you to know that if anything this job has taught me is the good ones always get basically effed over and the ones that deserve it are the ones that get off.Get away with things.Mm-hmm.So it's like f- And that's to show, like, this person who knows neither side, knows nothing, look at how they felt.Yeah, because they sat through the whole trial.Mm-hmm.That is, that was probably very frustrating to hear.Mm-hmm.Uh, right after hearing that, the, the verdict.It didn't, it didn't, like, bother me- Yeah.but it more so, it just showed me, like, so how could the jury see it the way that they did?Yeah.You get what I'm saying?Yeah.Especially, 'cause I think jurors, this is what I don't like, is jurorsWe're all going off perception and emotion, they're not going off law.As a juror, you don't know the law.Yeah, it's on a piece of paper but you think you're going back like, "Okay, this h- he has to have done this and this is it."That's what they hope, yeah.You're going off your feelings- I know.and I don't like the way he looks or I don't like what they said he did and that's it, you know?SoThat's, that's crazy 'cause if I heard paralyzed, deaf- Mm-hmm.Mm-hmm.you know, 13 shots, I would have been like, I don't, I'mThat, that would have been all I needed to hear.Seems like that's enough of a punishment to me.Yeah.That's what I'm saying.Ugh.And that's what kinda upset me with the alleged victim is kind of just like, "Okay, so you're telling me he tried to take my head off, he tried to kill me, he did this, he did that."And it's like, "Okay, so but then you turned around and you did, tried to do that."And I don't know if it was a situation where he thought, "Okay, it's gonna be me or it's gonna be him," I don't know if that's whatBut I think he persisted and just was crying and constantlyLike, I think the prosecutors were even annoyed with him because of ho- Like, th- one of those comments were made to our attorney because of the way he was acting.So I think it was a bit of that but at the same time I just feel like, okay, s- say you wanna think of, like, an eye for an eye.Like, don't you think you guys are even, you know?And it's just, I don't know, that's why I was like, "And this guy used to be friends with him."Yeah.So it's like, just part ways.And I think that's what came down to it, too, with, like, the other guys, is, like, ultimately when something happens like this, either you stay out of it or you have to pick a side.And I think they picked the side.It just sucks, you know, 'cause this affected somebody's life.Yeah.Not just his.Yeah.I mean, his entire family.Yeah.Right, and everybody.So- What your husband does and what people do in theory, but how do you keep it all together?Like, how do you day-to-day?I know you said you touched upon, like, therapy, and you touched uponI don't know if, if you also are religious, but, like, how do you, what do you do to get- Um.to keep yourself together?I think faith definitely holds me together, but I guess because I have no choice.But to hold it together, you know, I have 2 small children.I still have to provide for them.I still have to show up every day.So, I kind of don't let myself get tooEven if there comes a time when I'm like, "Okay, you, you spent your whole weekend in the bed."Like, "You gotta get up.Life keeps going."And it's just kind of how I've been just my whole life, even aside from this.Like, it's gonna keep going and you have to get up every day and you have to show up.And the, this perspective kind of hasIt's gotten me far, you know?I've gotten promoted at my job twice since my husband's been incarcerated, so, like, you know, my strength, everything, my ability to keep showing up, keep applying.Like, I don't give up.I don't let hard timesLike, my big boss, like, constantly, when I finally told the truth, 'cause it's not embarrassing, but you're gonna be judged.And that was kind of one of the things that, like, a lot of people, you don't want to tell people.Ah, yeah.'Cause then, then it's like you have to say, "Well, he was sentenced to 20 years, but he didn't kill anybody."Yeah."He didn't-" Yeah, that's, that's literally- Yeah.what I had to tell my boss when I told him, you know?'Cause I was like, "He didn't kill anyone.I just wanted you to know."You know?Because you feel the need to defend him- Yeah.automatically.But he tells me all the time, like, "I don't know how you show up here every day, you do the things that you do."And it's like, it's hard, don't get me wrong, but you have no choice.So, I have a goodI don't say I have, like, a big physical support system, but I do have, like, a good mental support system.Like, even my friends showing up to trial and, you know, like, in those ways.I do eyelashes too, so, like, that's like my side hustle, 'cause you gotta have 2 jobs in this economy.But most of my friends, I get to see them every 2 weeks.Every so often they all come get their lashes done.So it's like, that's my therapy.That's what, you know, keeps me in good spirits and I'm able to keep going.But definitely my kids.My husband too, you know.He's like, we don't fight.We never did, even when he was home.Even, he's like, "Okay, did you have a bad day today?"Like, I'm like, "No, I'm just eh, I don't know, I'm blah.I don't know what's wrong."You know?Like, I don't know.But it's like, life sometimes it just gets there, but you just can't let it beat you down.Wow.That's amazing.Yeah.Thank you.Yeah.If only, I mean, like, if only more people had your strength.Like, that's really amazing.So, we should plug your lash at- lash- What, like how- We should plug all your businesses here.Everything.How can guys- That's okay 'cause I'm from home so I don't like Yeah.Okay, yeah, she doesn't want strangers there.Yeah, it's fine.How can we support you?Like how, what can we do?Um- I know you said you collaborated with 300 Letters.Yeah.So, 300 Letters, the Victory Program, and People with Purpose.I work with those 2.300 Letters I connected because of my own story.Right.Um- So, we can contribute financially for your own, for your family.Yeah, to any of those 3.Okay.I love all them.So we'll drop the links then.I'll get them.Yeah, for sure.I think I have the 300 Letters one, but I don't have the other 2.I can pull them.Yeah.And then I do have my own, like, advocacy Instagram.It's called itslyricwhite on Instagram.So, that I made, I think, the same night I attended the re-entry summit.I was like, "Oh my God, this is what I want to do."That's amazing.So that's what I've been doing.Um, I think once I finish school, I graduate in December, I want toSo, I actually hated methods of research, hated it so much.But I think that I want to write a research paper on mandatory minimums, so I think that I'm gonna put my focus on that once I finish school.I'm just trying to get that out of the way.Very cool.Thank you.But we'll see.Yeah.We'll see where it takes me.I definitely want to continue advocating.I think we need real change.There's a lack of just everywhere in our system.You know, I find, like, oftentimes, like, the places in life where we feel like it's the worst, like, scenario or, like, the worst situation that could happen to us, it ends up changing the complete trajectory of our entire lives.And then we end up in a place that'sMaybe the journey's not easy- Right.'cause it's obviously not, it's been rough.But, like, getting to the, to the point where you're like, "I understand now why I went through such a hard time."Mm-hmm.Or why this all happened.And it just gives you kinda more perspective, and then you're like, "Okay, like, I'm"It gives you that validation too, like, "I am where I'm supposed to be too."And I feel likeI don't know.It's, I feel like it's going to be m- it is manifesting in this way, like, your, your passions and, and where you're going and, like, what you're doing, like writing a paper onLike, I love that because sentencing laws in Florida, I don't know about anywhere else because this is where we practice obviously, but the enhancements and, like, the minimum mandatories, I totally agree with you.It's just, it's crazy that people are serving longer sentences for things that are, on paper sound much worse than what actually went down versus other people that have committed worse acts that are, you know- They got a 5year plea deal.Yeah, they're out of custody.It's, there's a lot of discrepancies and disparities and it's, there's, you know, it's always been a thing, but- I also think that will help with the population, you know, these horrible enhancements, our PR and all these things that are, like, forcing to give these harsh sentences, like, okay, well that right there will help your popula- I understand at the end of the day, DOC, it can operate like a business.I get that, not taking away from that, but I think it's like, okay, if you want this to change, people aren't gonna stop going to prison realistically, like, they're gonna keep going, but give them real rehabilitation.Our sentencing laws, they don't need to be so strict.Trust me.Like I said, some people deserve to be there and some people don't deserve to get out.I'm okay with that, you know, but I think it's like, the things that warrant it- Yeah.that needs to be the case, not just'Cause some of these guys that, like, I've, you know, where my husband is, they have a Lifers program.Some of these guys were 20, ni- 18, 19, barely becoming adult and it's, like, for committing burglary and, you know.Not to say it's good or it's okay, but now these people are 40 years old, 50 years old.They're not that person that they were before.Yeah.And they have no chance of coming home, so it's like, it sucks.It really sucks, so one day I told myself when I got him home, I was like, "If I can just make a difference in one life, like, I will feel accomplished, like I did something."So that's why I just wanna keep advocating.I wanna just keep doing whatever it is I can.Um, mandatory minimums is a big thing for me.Like, when he first got sentenced, I reached out to FAMM, which is Families Against Mandatory Minimums.It's a huge organization.I haven't found, like, any success 'cause what they kinda do is, like, I think they do a lot of work in other states.Mm-hmm.But I think they kinda know how Florida operates.Yeah.'Cause there is no real, like, relief, I would say, going on.They really f- uh, refer you to another organization.But that organization doesn't work on mandatory minimums, they basically just work on helping those that are incarcerated, basically within the prison system, like mistreatment, phones aren't working, things like that.There's no real relief, I think, going on.Like, there's nobody fighting here for it.Yeah.But I think, like, honestly, just sharing your story, I know, like, you wanna do more and I think you will do more in, in your ad, like, advocacy, but I think sharing your story with people, like, who need to hear your story is probably changing people's lives.So I think it's amazing that you're, like, p- putting yourselves in probably- It's not comfortable, right?Like to share this- Yeah, no.I was telling one of the girls at work and she's like, "What if people at work see?"And I'm like, "At this point I don't even care."You know, 'cause I don't go around, like, vocally saying, "Yeah, my husband's in prison."You know, I don't tell people.People I'm closer to, they know, you know.Yeah.But I don't shy away from it either if asked, it's just that you, like I said, you feel the need to, like, defend or you feel guilty as ifYou know, but it's, like, that's not the reality of things, you know?Like, people, again, they make mistakes and- Also, people are just ignorant to the system.Yeah.So when they hear 20 years in prison, they assume the worst of the worst and it's like, if you have even, like, 2% knowledge of what's going on and what happens in a courtroom, you, you would probably know that there's probably more to the story- Right.than just that this person committed a bad act.Right, right.So- And I think a lot of it is, like, out of sight, out of mind.If they don't know, if it's never affected them- Exactly.they don't know and this person's a criminal or/and they're a piece of crap and that's it.Yeah.That's all they know.What's gonna keep them pushing?Exactly.Okay.Well, thank you so much, Lyric.We are definitely going to plug everything into the- Okay.show notes.So please, if you could support our girl Lyric and her family, we will link the, we'll drop all the links in the show notes where you can, um, send some donations.And we will also drop the Victory Programs information in the show notes.If you liked listening to this episode, make sure you like, comment, and subscribe to our newsletter.We are comebackwithawarrant.pod on all social media platforms, and if you didn't like listening to usCome Back With a Warrant.