Welcome back to Come Back With A Warrant podcast.I'm Brandon Denitz.And I'm Monica Schack.Before we kick-start this week's episode, this is your reminder that this podcast is not legal advice.It's real, unfiltered, and for entertainment purposes only.If you need to speak with a lawyer, call one.Or better yet, call us.All right.Good to be back with you.So, today we're looking at why people have negative views about us.About criminal defense attorneys.An- what I mean by that is, we are the most heavily policed in terms of ethics, probably in our profession.Yeah.But we get the reputation that we are not.The reputation of defense attorneys is that we're sleazy, or that we are sneaky or doing something shady.Um- I think- And I think that's the furthest thing from the truth.I, I agree.And I think because we're under a microscope in a sense, that that makes, I would say, a lot of us do take it seriously.Obviously, there are some exceptions and we will be discussing some exceptions.Right.But, overall, I would not generalize and say obviously criminal defense attorneys are unethical.And I, I would take a step back and even say like, lawyers in general are not really seen as like, the most ethical, honorable people in, in, like, professional aspects, I think.Because people call lawyers are liars, or, you know, they're sneaky, always trying to like manipulate or use like their knowledge to twist people's words, or all these, all these things are like, wheneverI don't know if you hear this, but prob- probably not as much 'cause you're married to an attorney.I, people do not come up to me and tell me, "You sneaky lawyer."No.No.Nobody says that.I didn't mean it like that.I meant, meant like when your partner tells you that you're like lawyering them, or like maybe because- No, because my partner does lawyer me.Exactly.So, no, I don't get that.I get it.'Cause she, she herself is an attorney, but that's what, that's what I was saying.Right.Right.So, like, maybe not so much exposure in your personal life, but in general, people just have this like not great idea of lawyers in general, and then on top of that, criminal defense, and we were talking about this before.It's like when you say, "I'm a criminal defense attorney," people are like, "Ooh, like, how do you do that work?"Or like, there, it's like this judgment that people come with, and it's like never ever like, "Oh, thank you so much for, like, what you do in the community."Like, saying you're a prosecutor is like more honorable to other people than- Right.a criminal defense attorney.Well, even other lawyers, when you tell them you're a criminal defense attorney, they typically look down on you.Yeah.And they're like, "Ah, you were, you were the stupid kid in law school."Yeah.And it's like, "No, that's not at all."Yeah."I'm the smart one in law school because you're sitting there, you know, listening to Come Back With A Warrant.""And I'm the one on the microphone coming back with a warrant."Exactly.L- listen.C's get degrees, okay?Because I got a D in contracts.We are not advocating for bad grades.No.Get your good grades.Pass law school.Stay in school.Because ultimately if you wanna get hired, you still need to have decent grades.Yes.But- So-I, I say that-do well in school.I say- But we're also saying the kids that were the smartest in school doesn't mean they were the smartestYeah.They're not the smartest lawyers or the best lawyers.Like, I don't think that'sYeah.I think also in criminal defense what differentiates us from other legal industries is that we'reOh, how do I say this?In like a, in a way that doesn't get misconstrued, which I think everything can get misconstrued.Anyways, I think criminal defense attorneys have this thing about them and I think this is in prosecutors too, but more so I think in criminal defense attorneys, where you can kind of just like handle things in court and not really worry about things behind the desk in terms of like motion.Like, that's not your strength.Like, your strength is not motion writing unless you're an appellate lawyer.I would exclude them, obviously, but I'm talking about like trial lawyers who represent defendants in active criminal cases.Their strength is being in trial.Their strength is oftentimes talking and being public speaking and, like, not necessarily the legal aspects of a case.Obviously, that comes with time and, like, practicing actual law.But, naturally speaking, these people are like the try lad people in law school, the people that are willing to kind of just debate on the spot, not really worried about, like, presenting.They're, they have these things about them that we can just kind of perform on the spot or we kind of get the skill that is acquired over time just from practicing because I didn'tI'm not a natural at this.I've, I've said that before.But, that's something that I think is definitely a big difference between criminal defense and other areas of law because other areas of law, there is, even if you are a litigator, you still have to, like, if, if you're in civil, discovery.There's, like, so much writing involved with that.Like, it's not just, like, show up to court and perform or handle that case, plead not guilty, negotiate, present a mitigating, mitigating case.So, I think that I don'tI'm not validating in a sense that we are dumber than the rest of the legal field, but at the same time I am, I do believe that there is this skillset that we have that's like a l- we're, we're kind of adaptable.We're more flexible.We're able to kind of just show up on the spot and, I mean, f- prosecutors have that too, but I think defense attorneys more so and even, like, in public defense, private defense, doesn't really matter.You just kind of like show up and that's doingThat is your job, is showing up.That's, that's totally true and I understand what you're saying.I, I am not the best motion writer.I, I mean, I send most of my work to my wife to double check if I'm- Yeah.if I'm being completely honest- Yeah.and that's because she's an excellent writer and I'm just not.That's a strong suit that is great for parts of this profession, but if you wanna succeed doing what we do, no, you are not the one that needs to be the best motion writer, but you certainly need to be the one that if there is a motion, you need to be able to be in front of the judge and present that motion-as well as anybody else.Yeah.So, um, it's a lot more on your feet, um, n- uh, negotiating face-to-face, uh, interacting with the judge face-to-face.You know, a lot of the civil process, the mediations, e- everything is slower and a lot of it's outside of the courtroom.With criminal, most of it is inside the courtroom, um, and it's a much quicker process.But then again, there's the positives and negatives to anything.The- Yeah.positives to the civil law side, as everybody knows and everybody is probably thinking as I'm saying it, the money.There's so much more money to be made in the civil law side than there is, uh, in the criminal side, um, just because, you know, insurance companies when they pay out in settlements, those are, uh, oftentimes big numbers.Yeah.And that could be just one case and that's, you know, great for civil lawyers, but that's just not what I am using my skillset for as a lawyer and that's not what makes me happy.Sitting behind a desk and writing motions doesn't make me happy.No.Researching, unless I absolutely need to, which there is definitely a time and a place when I need to be doing that, um, but when I don't need to be doing that, I- I don't want to be spending my time doing that.I like to be, uh, speaking to my clients, speaking to prosecutors, you know.Exactly.Scheduling times to be in court for the types of motions that we handle and types of things that we do.And we see this, a lot of the same issues over and over again legally, so when it comes to research, we're never reallyIt's not often that we're researching an issue that we're like, w- like it's something- Completely novel.Yeah.We've never- Yeah.That's right.heard this before.Like, that is way more 0 I think that happens way more often in, in civil cases.And not to say it doesn't happen in criminal, but it's just something that doesn't come up every single day.So, a lot of the cases and case law and precedent and law that we rely on to do our job today is things that we do all the time, so we already kind of know, it's second nature, and that's why our main job is just showing up.But I say all that to say because we are talking about, like, ethics and how criminal defense attorneys are perceived generally, um, I don't think that other attorneys, I wouldI hope that other attorneys don't look at us and say, like, they're less ethical than us.Like, I really don't think so.No, I don't think so, ultimately.I think they look at us more so in the way that's like, "Okay, yeah, they just, like, show up to court and that's it.Like, they don't really do shit."Whatever.You make less money.But- Uh, I feel like the way other lawyers look at it is like, "Oh, you make less money."Yeah.That's basically- Which is true.That's basically it, but that's, again, not whyI didn't take this job for- The money.the money.Like, I love doing this.Yeah.So, it's not a matter of, uh, the money.This was the profession that I am choosing to- Yeah.be in and I've chosen, you know, for my life.Yeah.I agree.And so, a lot of things thatA lot of people that don't know the inside of law life or becoming an attorney or the process of becoming an attorney, obviously you have to apply toBefore you even take the bar exam, you have to apply to take it, and there are so many processes to get through to become an attorney and finally a barred attorney, so there, there were people even that passed the bar exam that still were not licensed lawyers because of character and fitness or the ethical- Yeah, yeah.Explain that.portion of their application.There's so many different aspects of the application and one of them is the ethics portion, and that requires all attorneys before barred to take something called the MPRE.Do you know what the MPRE stands for?I don't even know.Something- Multi-State Professional Responsibility Examination.Professional ResponsibilityOkay.Okay.Yeah.I think.I didn't what the mul- I didn't know what the M was.I think that's what it stands for.Okay.Yeah.Well, that makes sense.Yeah.Because you don't have to take it ev- you don't have to take it every time you pass the bar exam elsewhere.So, I think you're right.So, I think that's what it is.Um, but yeah.So, that's the ethics portion of the bar exam, which you take as a law student, um, I think you take it after your first year, s- sometime after your first year because you have to first put in your application.And, um, when you take it, that's when you are able to, like, ethically licen- like, you're ethically licensed at that point, but you still obviously have to take the bar exam to practice law.Yeah.I- I think, I think, you know, someone that's not at all familiar with the, with the process, so forlaw school is 3 years long and you are starting your bar application process during your first year.Yeah.That's how long this process takes.Part one, this character and fitness which Monica was starting to talk about, is an entire section that's the Florida Bar doing a background check on you and anything that you've ever done, you know, ever.If you farted too loud in high school, like, the bar needs to know about it.And I, that was the way that it was bas- not, not that eloquently, but it, that's how it was described in law school was you needed to put every single thing you ever did, uh, for the most part, on there.And w- there are a lot of people that get caught up in that stage.If you have prior arrests in your history or if you have, um, disciplinary things in your past, um, from school, that's stuff that could hold you up with the, with that character and fitness section.But then once you get cleared by character and fitness, then you're able to, uh, that's one of the boxes you have to check off to get through the bar application process.And then you have that MPRE exam, the professional responsibility exam, which is an entire exam devoted to ethics and rules- Mm-hmm.that we as lawyers must follow.You said this at the beginning, you know, how other professions look at us and whether other professions think we're sleazy or unethical or, or whatever.Uh, to my knowledge, being a lawyer is the only profession where you have to pass an exam on ethics.Yeah.You don't have to do that to be, uh, uh, to my knowledge.And I don't know, maybe I'm wrong.It, I don't know about certain, uh, financial exams or things, I would hope that there are some ethics components to that as well.Uh, but we're one of the only professions where you have to have an ethics component.Yeah.And not only is it a component, it's a mandatory thing that you have to pass to become a lawyer.It's a whole separate test.It's not like, it's not a section of the bar exam.No, you have to pass- Right.that separately from the barCorrect.And you have to take MPRE professional responsibility, like, prep class before.Like, that is a requirement for everybody to do before actually taking the MPRE exam.So, I mean, there's a lot that goes into just becoming cleared by the bar on an ethics level, before you even get to the exam process.And that's, you know, that's kind of what we're getting at, is the process of becoming a lawyer, your ethics are checked at the very beginning, your background is checked at the very beginning, and then you are taught, "These are the rules that you have to follow."And criminal defense attorneys in circumstances follow more rules, um- Yeah.and are, have more things that we are not allowed to do in terms of the conversations we have with our clients and when we have to report things or not report things or when we have a duty to the court versus our client and which duty is, uh, goes higher.Um, those aren't things that every other lawyer, certainly every other profession have to deal with.Yeah.That's so true.And you actually reminded me, that process, like, it's, you start your first semester, I think, of law school, like, submitting your application like you were saying, and you reminded me while you were talking, because I completely forgot.They got back to me, I thought I was not gonna pass per- character and fitness, because that guy I was dating before law school that got arrested-listen to this they came back and they were like, 'cause you have to submit every address you ever, like, were connected to in your history.And so, I, it was a specific state.I'm not gonna say s- which state, but it was a s- specific state that he was from, and on one of the letters when they got back to me, because they would, like, confirm they received X, Y and Z.And they got back to me stating that they believe that I was connected to that address, his address.And I was like,I was like, "Please disconnect me completely from this."Were you still with that guy at that point or no?No.No.Yeah.Oh, this was, uh, this was after that?Yeah.So I was like, "Oh, my gosh, please."But thankfully they, they just, they, like, after I told them I, like, never had connection with it other than that scenario, like, I just was in a relationship with someone that lived there, I never actually lived there or anything, it was fine.But, I was like, "Oh, my God."Anyways.That was my only mishap, thankfully.But that's a scaryYeah, but, okay, but again, like, they are going, they go through everything with a fine-tooth comb to need to know your add- your prior addresses.I mean, they want to know everything.And there are a ton of people that are applying for the bar every year, and there are a ton of people that become lawyers in all these different states every year and have to pass these certifications and these responsibility, these professional responsibility exams, you know, we're talking from the perspective of having done it in Florida, but you have to do this everywhere else.Everywhere.And this, there are s- like, pe- like I said, people have passed the actual bar exam.I think that's true, right?Or can you not take the bar exam until you pass the MPRE?Um, I think you can take the bar exam- That's what I thought.without having passed the MPRE.Yeah.But you have to take it within a certain timeframe.But you still have to have both passed in order to practice.Before you practice.Correct.And there are attorneys that practice to represent students applying to get passed by the bar, because the bar is like, it's, they have their own, they have their own, like, process.Like, they have their own hearings, like, you can challenge things.Like, they have their own, I don't even know, it's, I don't even know if that's considered admin law.I think it is.But who knows?Yeah.I, and there are attorneys who specialize in that, and, like, actually represent the students who are trying to get past that.But, and like I said, like, there have been attorneys who have had, like, criminal history or, you know, situations in their past where the Florida Bar becomes a- aware of it, and they investigate it and all the things, and they end up letting them still become attorneys.Like, there are many attorneys I know that have either minor or significant criminal history, and they're practicing lawyers now because they passed the ethical portion and it's fine, like- Well, all you have to do is tell them about it.Yes.That was it.It was not necessarily, I don't, there are certain circumstances where they did a deeper dive than that, but if you just told them about it, that was it.Yeah.You know, I was a real bad boy in college, and I got an underage drinking ticket, okay?Because, uh, I didn't always have a beard, and when I don't have a beard, I look like a child.Look like a bebe, yeah.Right, soUm, I got, uh, at a tailgate, a ticket for underage drinking, which is technically a misdemeanor.Yeah.And, um, I put that on my application- Yeah, and it was fine.and everything was fine.Yeah.Um, I didn't get it expunged, and I ma- apparently that was to my benefit, because had I gotten it expunged, it would've become- It would've been a whole process.uh, a process where they would need to open it up and look at it, but, um, no, they didn't.Yeah.Wow, cool.I, that's, that's- Yeah, I'm a, I'm a, I'm, I'm a rebel.Yeah.Be, be careful out there.Listen- I'm a wild child.Some of your clients might respect it.Well-you know, I actually do represent 4 individuals right now-that have, uh, that received underage drinking tickets, and, um- By the time this episode airs, those cases will be dismissed.That's right.That's right, 'cause I do good work.Hell yeah.And, umThat's true, though.And, uh, you know, I, when those parents, they were calling me and telling me, and they're freaking out, I'm letting them know, "You, you're fine.Your kid is fine."Yeah.If he- Because I was once in that situation.Hey, if he's, that's right, and if he's anything like me, in a few years he'll be hosting a podcast-happily married with a baby.Yes, winning.Winning with his own law firm.Everything is fine.Oh my God.I'm, I'm telling that.That's, no, that's, I mean, listen, that's some validation for the parents because they're probably thinking that their kids are like- It's the end of the world.Exactly, and it's like- They really are.I feel, I feel bad for them because they do get, they freak out and they're just like, "My son, what did he do?"Yeah.And it's like, "Well, did he get caught at-" He was being a kid." Banco Cantina drinking or some shit."Like, nothing serious.Yeah, yeah.I don't know if that's actually where it was, but I know Banco had a raid recently, so- Yeah.be careful out there.Yeah.Telling all our listeners, don't- Banco's a good time.Be, don't be drinking underage.Like, we have a lot of underage drinker, uh- Yeah.listeners.I, yeah.That, I would be surprised, but- I, we don't.I don't think so.It'sYou're like, "I don't think we have a single one."I don't think a single person is underage.But we might have a listener who has a child that might end up getting, God forbid, but- You know who to call.that's, it's fine.Yeah, exactly.We are here.So, um, the other thing we talked about before this was that we get comments all the time on, actually, I do.And, and I know you did recently, and it was like, basically along the lines of, "This is sick.What, like, what money can buy is sick," or something, on our videos.Oh, yeah.LikeYeah.Like- There'll be videos of giving, I saw that on, I saw that on one of your videos that you were giving, uh, you were giving legal advice and it wasn't anything outlandish, and this woman was like, "This is sick what money can buy."I'm like- And I'm just like, "Oh, okay."Yeah.It's like, okay well, like, keep that in mind next time.Good, good state criminal representation, that's, that's what the money is buying you.Mm-hmm.And this, this is just We aren't advertising, like, drugs.People are naturally offended by our existence because of our jobs.Yeah, until they need us.Until they need us.And that's the thing, whenever I'm like, giving people my card, anywhere, like, 'cause people are like, "Oh, what do you do?"Whatever, like, exchange business cards, and people, I just sense this hesitation, like people don't wanna take my card.But it's like, I know you don't want my card, but you're gonna be looking for it when you need it or when someone calls you and says, "Do you know a criminal lawyer?"And that'll be me, and you'll be like, "I know that I spoke to this criminal defense attorney at X, Y, and Z and I never actually save their information."S- something that I get told often is, "It's really nice to meet you, and I wish I never met you."Yeah.Or, "I hope I-" From the same people."I hope I n-""And I hope I never speak to you again.""I hope I never see you again."I get that all the time.I'm like, I, or, or like, it's, sometimes I'm, like, telling my clients, like, "It's nice to meet you," and then I'm, like, "Wait," like, "I'm sorry."It's like- Albeit the circumstances.Yeah, like, the circumst- Yeah, I throw that in there all the time because it's like- Like, yeah, like something, like, it's like, so yikes.Well, it's ni- for me, it's nice to meet them.Like, it's, I like, I like interacting with people.I like interacting with my clients.It's a new day.It's a new case.Yeah.But then they're like, "Aah!Oh help!"Like, breathing all heavy.And I'm, I'm just- It's not funny.It's not funny.It's just- They don't, they don't-2 different wavelengths.Yeah, no.Completely.Most of them are not, like, panting by the time they get, get to my office.No, they are not excited to meet us.No, no, no, they're not happy to meet us.But you touched on this, and that was, like, the duty to the court, and I think this comes into play when we have con- certain conversations with our clients.And sometimes things are told to us that, well, all the time, whenever we have conversations with our clients, there's attorney-client privilege.Nothing can be said.However, the ethical rules require us to disclose certain things to the court, but certain things are not alwaysHow do I say this?Like, the court's business.I, I know what you're get- I, I know what you're saying.Yeah.I know what you're saying because, so that, that's a question that criminal defense attorneys get asked all the time: What things, if your client told you, do you have to, like, report?Do you have to call the, you know, tell the police, or do, if, if your client tells you they're gonna do something, like, do you have an act?Do you have a duty?Okay.That's one, one example.But another issue arises when you have a client that tells you something, and you rely on it and go to court, and you make a representation to court or to the prosecutor.Yes.And then you find out that your client lied to you.Yeah.Now, the question is, what is your duty?Do you have to go to the court and tell the court, "This was, uh, this claim that I made is incorrect, and I now know it's incorrect?"Or do you owe a duty to your client, and is that duty higher than your duty of being, you know, uh, honest to the court?The answer that I have heard in the scenario that I faced when that happened to me, from the bar, who you call and there's an ethical hotline, uh, when I called them and told them, they were sa- they said, "No, you don't, you don't say anything to the court.Your duty to your client is above the court."And that was that.And oftentimes, the ethical hotline that you call for the bar, they won't g- they can't give you an actual answer.They'll direct you to certain opinions, but they, oftentimes, that gentle nudge towards an opinion is th- them giving you the answer.Yeah.Um, more often than not, they'll give, they give good answers and good help, and it's good to- I was gonna mention-it's good to call them.I, I'm-I call them- Yeah.all the time.It's, it's good because youIt's great to make sure you're doing something the right way.And I never even called them before I went in solo.Never called the ethical hotline.So the, for people who don't know, the Florida Bar offers this free resource to all bar attor- attorneys in Florida.You can call them and basically ask them if something is ethical or unethical.And this comes whether it's your finances, how you're dealing with a client, what, the opposing counsel, the court.It doesn't matter.There are rules that govern eg- how we do our job and whether it's ethical or not, and some things, yes, they're common sense when it comes to ethics, but then there are other things that can, like, toe a gray line.And in your scenario, I have been faced with that situation, and I always just try to mitigate the situation in court while protecting my client because I also don't want to show to the judge, as much as I can, and to the state, that my client is a liar and make them look worse than they already are.Even though I may be frustrated with that situation, it's not something that kind of n- doesn't need to be aired out, and, and it's kind of like keeping your, like, business at home and, like, not airing out your dirty laundry.Yeah, because I, in this scenario that I'm talking about, I was pissed- Yes.that my client lied to me.Very mad.And I relied heavily on that when I spoke to the prosecutor and actually got this person a deal based on that representation and was stuck that I couldn't go back and say, "Hey, this w- information that I'm telling you is, I found out is wrong."Like, that, that stinks, and you'reI'm not happy with my client about that at all.But- Yeah.uh, whether I'm happy with him or not and whether I would p- it would be my preference to tell the prosecutor or tell the judge what that was, unless, uh, the way that I was told, unless I was specifically asked by the judge- Yes.I was not supposed-I was not to say, to say anything.But because I was never, you know, specifically asked, that was it, and- Yeah.I wound up, I wound up getting off of that case.I wound up withdrawing from that case- Yeah.um, after that because I wasn't, I wasn't gonna continue with the representation, and I didn't ex- I didn't take the plea with that client.That client took the plea that I had negotiated for him and got the benefit of that great deal, but I did not- Yeah.uh- Carry it out.It was not me that did it.It was with another lawyer, and when that lawyer even asked me why I withdrew from the case, I couldn't tell him.Yeah.and I couldn't explain to him what, you know- Wow.what, uh, yeah.But that wasn't when I was working with my own firm.That was when I was with my, my last firm- Previous firm.and I, um, uh, I, I had very, very smart, uh, lawyers around me that were- Yeah.and, you know, we spoke to the bar and, like, we knew exactly how to handle it.So it was- Exactly.It was good.That's what's nice about, like, when you're in an office setting with other attorneys, you can always bou- like, that's, I guess, why I never really called The Florida Bar Ethics Hotline because I always just, like, talked to fellow attorneys and then I would come to my own conclusion prior to going solo.And then when I went solo, I don't have that luxury, you know?I mean, oftentimes I can obviously call you or maybe another friend, but there are certain things I'm just like, "I need to see why" because now it's like I am the liability.That's right.Versus before, I didn't necessarily see mis- uh, like, the firm I worked for really had to kind of see YA for themselves, including me and my actions.Obviously, I worked, I acted in good faith all the time, but that always is n- that's not always, like, a defense or, like, a, a reason to commit an unethical rule.Right.So, um, that being said, I always now call them.So- And let's be clear.Not only are they responsible for telling us what the rules are at the bar, but they are responsible for policing those rules.Yeah.So if you do violate or if there's an alleged violation, you have to go through the process of a bar complaint and deal with answering, uh, to the bar for any, uh, misconduct that you may have done.Yeah.And your license is at risk.Your bar license and ability to continue to practice law is at risk during that process, and that's, um, there, that's its own category of the law, like you were talking about.There are lawyers that just represent other lawyers that are getting in trouble.And we're not, I'm not talking about malpractice because that's a whole other thing- Yeah.where lawyers can be sued for malpractice and, and most, if not all lawyers carry malpractice insurance- Yeah.because of that.Um, but there are different levels of safeguards that protect against and pre- uh, protect against the actions of lawyers, especially if they're improper, and they hold us to a very high standard.Yeah.And also, I wanna note that we're not regulated just in, like, our job necessarily.Like, this is in, like, all the time, everywhere, doesn't matter if we're, our lawyer hats on, our lawyer hats off.Like, we are technically regulated by The Florida Bar 24/7.That's a good point.Yeah, I, now that I say that out loud, it's kind of, like, scary.Well- But not that I do anything.Yeah, but I mean, not doing anything that's provoking the bar.But even when we were putting together this show, and as we, as we go on with this show, I'm sure it'll come up, but we contacted the bar because we wanted to know how far into stories about our past we could get into without needing, uh, special permission or, um, what are the things we aren't allowed to talk about.And they were pretty clear with us what things we could talk about or not talk about without permission from either prior clients or, uh, prior individuals that are involved in what- whatever we're talking about.Yeah.But it comes up all the time for us.And, you know, we're doing a podcast, but we are still lawyers and even this show, we are- Yeah.we have ethical obligations- Exactly.under the bar that we have to- It's a good point.Yeah, that's so true.Yeah.'Cause this is technically not the practice of law and we were calling them as to make sure we were kosher.Correct.So that's so true.Um, so in terms ofWell, what happens if you'Cause I started to talk about what the negative side is and what happens if you, uh, get, find yourself in trouble and violate.And what we do have to say is there are a, a handful of lawyers that do get in trouble for various things, um, and they are punished by the bar, if not punished, uh, legally.And we see cases that come up, um, there's a case right now that we are very familiar with about a local lawyer, if you wanna talk about it.Yeah, in Palm Beach County.Um, yeah, talk about it.So there is a criminal defense attorney, and this is why I said we will talk about the exceptions, 'cause this is one of them, where one attorney was accused of lacing papers covered in Bible verses, um, in the Palm Beach County jail, and it was laced with cocaine.And so he was charged with numerous first-degree felonies, um, trafficking cocaine into a detention facility, and he was facing years in prison, and he went to trial, he got lessers and ultimately has to serve a year in the county, which is, I mean, considering, considering the entire circumstance and what he was charged with, I think he may consider it a win.I don't know.But the other part of it is that he was disbarred.So that's, that's, that's the other aspect of, you know, the Florida Bar.It's not just, like you were saying, it's not just the Florida Bar.It's also, like, there's a legal aspect.It's like you're committing a crime and as a result of your, your crime or the punishment, you could lose your license to practice law.Yeah.I, I think this is an unfortunate example for a lot of reasons, and I also think this is, um, i- it'sI, I don't think that it's something that most lawyers, a position that most lawyers will find themselves in, um, because the allegation of soaking papers in drugs and then sneaking them into a facility kno- and knowingly doing that, um, I don't, I don't even think he was convicted of- The trafficking?that in, really, in full.He was convicted of just possession- Yeah.if I'm not mistaken.Mm-hmm.So, um, I think there's a lot to this story, and I think that, you know, I'm not one for, I'm not a, a conspiracy person, but you're telling me that this lawyer that didn't have a criminal record all of a sudden is soaking, knowshas the knowhow and is soaking papers with cocaine and bringing them into the, uh, jail and giving them out to clients who then can share them, sell them, do whatever with them, um, I, I think there's probably more to the story that we're never gonna know- For sure.um, that he was maybe not doing this, uh, w- at his own free will, but- Yeah, that's-we'll never know.Yeah, that's true, and- I just, I think that that's, w- you work way too hard to become a lawyer to do something like that just because.Yeah.I, like, would never risk my bar lice- bar license for anything, and I would hope the same for other attorneys, but then there are other, there are times and there are stories that come out all the time, there's, there was somebody in Miami that, years ago, that, um, got disbarred because they were giving kickbacks to judges whenever they would get more wheel-appointed cases.So there are so many ways you can, like, get in trouble, ultimately get prosecuted, serve a, either a jail or prison sentence, and lose your license to practice law, and then try to ultimately get it back, because if you do get disbarred, there is a process where you can get basically admitted back into the bar, but you have to go through I don't know what in, what aspects of what, and in terms of, like, the federal courts versus the state courts, that's a whole separate thing, and you would have to go through each individual bar, um,to get admitted.But, or sorry, like jurisdiction to get admitted, but I don't know, like, just, just like you're saying, like, you work way too hard, but at the same time, it's like there are people that, that still risk it.Yeah, that's, that's right.Yeah, they, they feel, they feel untouchable or I don't know, butAnd I'm not, not to say that he was because he really wasn't convicted of the charges that he was charged with, which they were very serious, and considering what he was convicted of versus what he was actually charged with, I think that's why I said maybe he considers it a win, because if that happened to one of my clients where it was like you're facing a minimum mandatory of X amount of years in prison and you, you're serving 364 and you were convicted on a possession with no MIM man, likeTh- the State Attorney's Office never would have offered that to resolve the case, that, uh, uh, plain possession conviction.There's no way that they would have offered that, so the only way to get that is by going to- Trial.going to trial and going, ge- getting a jury, and I think it is a win because the state never would have offered that and it's something better than you could have gotten through them.Yeah.Um, but the jury saved him.I mean, he was looking at minimum mandatory prison time on multi- I think on multiple charges, right?Multiple counts, yeah.So, umSo he was, he- Not a great story.It was, yeah, and it was definitely a risk to go to trial because- Yeah.We can have a separate thing on sentencing, but minimum mandatories, going to trial on, like, any sort of enhancement or minimum mandatory is, like, you have to have a whole conversation with your client.Obviously, he's a criminal def- He himself is a criminal defense attorney.Like, it's not like he's just a r- like another, no.Like- Yeah.he knows, he knows very well.So, um, that kinda hit home too 'cause it was local and it actually just happened, and there was also a portion of this, like, ethical component of a conflict of interest pending trial when he was still, because you are innocent until, or you're presumed innocent, um, he was outta custody, practicing law still.I'm sure there was an investigation by the Florida Bar, but obviously it's an investigation at that point.They don'tHe wasn't suspended or anything- Right.handling his cases in court.And I was a public defender at the time and handling my cases, he would come in and the judges would have to basically do a colloquy with his own clients and be like, "You know, you are, you are both being prosecuted.You and your attorney are being prosecuted by the same state attorney's office, and this could be potentially a conflict of interest in your case.Do you still, like, consent to his representation on your case?"And the ones that I saw, they agreed.I never saw them ask for him to be withdr- withdrawn from the case, but it's just embarrassing because the judge is now announcing it in front of everybody in the courtroom, you know?It's notIt was still an accusation at the time.It wasn't a conviction, and it was not something that was handled privately.So, I remember, like, when I saw that as a public defender and I was just like, "Yikes."Like, that is rough, you know?So, that was like a big local news situation that everybody kind of was talking about and keeping an eye on.Um, but there have been other local attorneys which we didn't prepare to talk about and I just- No.came to mind.I don't know if- But-you know what I'm talking about.Go for it.Do you know?'Cause IThere's so many examples that I'm thinking of right now, whether it's local lawyers that have been prosecuted or- Well-local lawyers that have been held in contempt in front of certain judges, that I am thinking of examples of both right now.Yeah.Um, and we could talk about- We can go on and on, you guys.Yeah, there's a lot, there's a lot that we could go into with that.Um, and we probably will at some point 'cause those are some really good stories.Yeah.But- But, you know.Um-that one was definitely, like, that was the most recent and definitely something That's where we're gonna leave it for today.Um, I don't know if you guys heard, but, uh, if you guys aren't aware, Florida has a new law now where disbarment is possible for attorneys who cut bribes to judges.So, we're gonna get into that a little bit later in the episode, but I thought it was important to at least preface this episode with the disclaimer of, you know, there's no disrespect to any lawyers or clients or anything like that, but I just think it's kind of rough and it could be improved upon.Yeah.Uh- Uh, especially when you're doing work with your hands, you know what I mean?So, I'm curious about y'all's thoughts on all of this, not only, uh, on the sentencing itself, but also on the background of it.And the attorney was like, "We need to talk about this."And then he presented an attorney who was like, "We need to talk about this," so- Yeah.um, I don't know.I, I- But I think there's more to that story, uh, but he had to keep his mouth shut because that's the, that was the more dangerous of the options, and he's gonna do his year and went to trial and lost his career over it, uh, but maintained his life.Yeah.And I think s- you know, stepping off of my soapbox and taking my tinfoil hat on, off, that is kinda what I think- Yeah, and then there are-a lot of disbarred attorneys that make a career out of becoming basically paralegals and they like- Yeah.become the writers for the criminal defense attorneys who are like us and just like to show up and we need writing to be done because the thing is, we still need to do our writing.It's just, I've told you this before, it takes me so long to get it done.That's true.Like, it's, I just despise that part of my job, but it still needs to get done.But anyways, um, they make a, they make, they make their money basically doing the writing for other lawyers and it's pretty cool 'cause it's like you don't really need to train them on anything.It's like they already know what's up.Slippery slope though, because you have a disbarred attorney, y- th- it's dangerous.I mean, you're reviewing it and filing it.So it's fine.Dangerous, but- Yeah.But But they, you know?I think it's a good idea, honestly.They need work and- Yeah, exactly.How are they gonna get paid?And how are they gonna get their lives back together?Exactly.Unless they did something real scuzzy and it's like sh- shame on you.Yeah.Bad.Tsk tsk.Yeah.Yeah.Made us all look bad.Like a sex case.Like a sneaky lawyer.Oh.Full circle, baby.I was about to say like a sex case.Full circle.What'd you say?I went from- Like a sex case?I went from- Oh, it's so much worse.Yeah.I went like, I went to like the dark side.Yeah, no.We didn't cover the lawyers that get involved with, with that- No.shit, 'cause I'm sure those are- I haven't really seen that.I'm sure that is out there.Yeah.There's- Yeah.But I meant like locally or anything like that.Every profession has its scuzs.Predators.Scuzzes, predators.Yeah.That's true.Um, I wanted to also mention- Sure.that the Florida Bar Ethical Hotline, and we can include like the resource information in the show notes, um, it's anonymous, so like y- they will never know who's calling and that's why it kind of just gives you free rein.Give them a call if you are, ever have a question about anything that may be on the gray side, you know, you're not fully sure, could go either way, what rule governs this?Instead of having to do your own research, you just call them and ask them, and there's like barely ever a wait.Like I've been- Yeah.in the call queue for like 2 minutes and I always get somebody on the, on the phone.The only thing that sucks is they're not 24 hours, but besides that, 10 out of, 10 out of 10.And most people are n- not, not nocturnal like you are, so.Yeah.Working at like crazy hours.Yeah, no.None of us enjoy our sleep.Well, um, I guess- That's it.Okay.Well, if you like listening to this episode, make sure you like, comment, and subscribe to all our platforms, Come Back With A Warrant dot pod.We have a newsletter that drops every Tuesday with our episode, and um, if you don't like listening- Come Back With A Warrant.