Welcome back to Come Back With A Warrant podcast.I'm Brandon Denitz.And I'm Monica Shack.Before we kickstart this week's episode, this is your reminder that this podcast is not legal advice.It's real, unfiltered, and for entertainment purposes only.If you need to speak with a lawyer, call one.Or better yet, call us.Call us.Welcome back.Today we have a very special guest, Isai Bonilla, a dedicated advocate with deep experience at the intersection of criminal defense and immigration law.He began his career at the public defender's office, where he represented clients facing some of the most challenging moments of their lives.After several years of frontline defense work, he transitioned into private practice, focusing on cases where criminal charges and immigration consequences collide.With his unique dual system expertise, Isai guides clients through complex legal landscapes while protecting their rights every step of the way.We're excited to have him share his perspective on today's episode.Thank you so much for coming today.Oh, no worries.I'm glad to be here.Welcome to the show, yeah.I didn't know.Thank you very much for being here.For sure.So we brought you on to be our expert on crimigration, as we like to call it.Yeah.Yeah, I'm down.Um, and for people who don't know what crimigration is, that's the intersection of immigration and criminal law, umWhich is a very hot button issue right now all across the board.Yeah.Um, because what we're getting into is what happens when somebody is arrested and they also have an immigration issue, and when does that immigration issue arise in the process, and really what happens, because a lot of people don't know what happens, and really all we're all seeing is on the news what's going on.But what we get to see as lawyers, the 3 of us, is a lot of people that are being arrested, and when they come into court, we're finding out that they have immigration holds on top of, uh, whatever they've been arrested for.And what that means is they are being designated to having, to have some sort of immigration issue, and that is holding them in custody separate from whatever the criminal bond could or will be in the case.Right?That's fair.I think so, yeah.I think that's a fair way to say it, right?So this is a, a really interesting area of, of the law, and this comes up a lot, because what happens when somebody is, you know, arrested for something really serious or not really serious and they have immigration issues pending?What, what happens?So yeah, jump right in.Yeah, so, so that's, this is something I think is b- like probably something more frequent that we are used to seeing more often in South Florida, because we are inI know, and I'm sure probably Texas, like certain parts of the country see this intersection between these 2 areas of law more frequently than others.Definitely.But how did you get started in, like- So I always knew that immigration, um, I needed to learn about it.You know, my parents were immigrants, so the criminal s- side is really my true passion, but the immigration is my way to give back.So once I made the decision to take the jump to learn immigration, that's when I've tried to use the knowledge and the experience that I, that I'd gotten from criminal defense to tie that into immigration court, which was actually a whole shock to me when I first started immigration.'Cause you, you see that going to immigration court, doing like these deportation trials is a lot different than a criminal jury trial.And I had a mentor, um, in my old firm, Mark Diaz, and that dude was wise beyond his years, and he would tell me, he's like, "Yeah, welcome to, welcome to this, this new dynasty," you know?And, uh, he helped me adjust from the criminal aspect to now this is a different type of fight.We gotta fight it differently.And he helped me a lot, uh, helped me out a lot with that.That's super interesting that you say that, 'cause obviously like just some background, immigration is, is federal work, right?Mm-hmm.'Cause that's not just in Florida.Mm-hmm.And then when we deal with criminal most of the time, that can be federal, but you- Yes.started at the public defender's office.That was a state- Yes.job.You know, obviously that's a difference, but then there's a difference of like there, it's, you're saying deportation trials, there aren't juries in immigration court, right?No, there are no juries, so really it's, it's kind of like a divorce trial where it's just a judge, you hear both sides, and then the judge basically hears all the evidence and then makes a decision right there on the bench.That's how it is for a deportation trial, and that was hard for me to adjust when I s- first started from the public, when I first started from, you know, doing criminal jury trials, and now I had to shift to now I have to prove why my client belongs, uh, or should stay here.And that was a shift that I had to learn, and thankfully, um, with the, with the help from my prior firm, Andres, uh, Jim Peterwise there, they definitely helped me out with that, in that, in that transition.Yeah.So- And now I combine them.Yeah.So d- so that's what I was gonna ask you.When you first started, were you just like dealing with only immigration?Or were you also dealing with like crimigration?At first it was mostly immigration, 'cause they were heavy on training, and so I was doing all these, these, these court hearings and then figuring out how to, uh, prepare the evidence for the immigration trials and then eventually the immigration trial.Once, you know, I got my foot in the door, so to speak, into trials for immigration, then I started getting into the, the criminal defense where people were getting ICE holds and people charged with felonies, and then how can we actually use the criminal case to help you in your immigration case?Or vice versa, how can we use the immigration case to help you with the criminal case?And that's where we- we've learned and where I've learned how to use both.Wow.Yeah.I di- Sometimes it, it is helpful to use both.Yeah, I didn't- You know.I thought it was always damning-to have both.Yeah, agreed.Ela- elaborate on that.How did, how did you- Sure.use the criminal case to help the immigration case or vice versa?So like what you mentioned before, you know, a lot of these, uh, people who don't have status, when they get arrested for a crime, uh, they get something called an immigration hold or a detainer, which just basically says, "Hey, state, when you're done with this criminal case, we want him.We're gonna take him into immigration custody and verify what's going on with his immigration case."So sometimes what w- we'll do as immigration lawyers is, before you pay any bond, let's figure out what's going on in your immigration case before ICE takes you.Because maybe we can use the time that you're in custody in the Mm-hmm.the state case, to kind of build your case in immigration, that way when you do get into immigration custody, we're ready to go.Here's the form, here's the application, here's the stay, here's a motion for the court.Or maybe we're just, we're using this time to build your immigration case.That way when ICE takes you, we're ready.And sometimes, uh, it's kind of hard for clients who's never been through it before, for them to realize that, "Oh, I might have to stay in custody on a state case for a little bit longer in order to get the bigger result," which is, you know, big picture, "Let's get you home."Home here with your kids, home here with your wife, or with your, with your father, you know, whatever it is that's going on.'Cause we're getting these ICE detainees from all ages, all groups.And it's, it's heartbreaking, but you know, there's work to be done.And I think combining those 2 is, is super helpful for them.Does this apply to anybody without legal status?Or is it could be somebody that maybe just has immigration issues because they overstayed their visa or whatever, you know, like- Yes.who is, who is in this category?So if there's an immigration detainer, doesn't matter if you have a whole petition or a case pending, you're gonna be treated as if someone who doesn't have status.So that's why, uh, when someone gets into the system, and let's say they, they came on a visa, which is good, um, but then they get arrested for something minor, let's say a misdemeanor or something serious like a felony, uh, and they got that immigration detainer, they're gonna treat them the same way as if someone who's never had sta- Okay.So even if they do have status, they're here illegally, and they're applying to stay for a longer time, or they're applying for a new, uh status to stay here, they're, they would still, if they're arrested for anything, or for something that would beIs it anything or is it something that would be, like, a deportable offense?Yeah.So when it comes to, like y- your status, um, there's different ways someone can have, like, legit status in the country.Some of it could be, like TPS, which is Temporary Protected Status.Uh, some of them actually have won their immigration cases, so therefore they become a resident.And then the most common way is, you know, you go through your paperwork with your family member, sometimes it could be a parent or a husband and wife.They, they ask for, to petition you.But if that case is pending, you don't have status, and they treat you like that.But if e- if everything is approved, then great.Usually, uh, that means, you know, we can, we can just focus on the criminal case and we'll get you out, and then we'll figure out what, what we can do on the back end as f- as far as immigration.But a lot of people think that, "Oh, I have status 'cause, you know, I have my case pending, I got my asylum case, I got my work permit."Right.And unfortunately, immigration, they don't look at it the way that we look at it.And unfortunately, that means they can get taken into cus- immigration custody, and then we've got to fight that fight.So how much, how much communication happens between the state local enforcement and, like, the federal enforcement for immigration?So w- when someone gets arrested, uh, what those police departments are doing now is they're signing contracts with immigration to house a lot of the immigrant popula- population in their jail.And they notify ICE that, "Hey, we have somebody here who maybe has status, maybe d- maybe they don't, we don't know, but we're letting you know."And then that's where the immigration detainer gets put into place.So that's how the state affects the local communities, or local police departments, or even the state affects immigration enforcement in Florida is, it's pretty aggressive.I heard that they're incentivizing local police, like w- financially.I've heard that as well.And surprisingly, um, the trend that I've been seeing, and this hasn't happened before, is on police reports they're mentioning, "We've verified their status and we've confirmed that they don't have status."I've never seen that on a police report before.But now we're starting to see that, and I think it's because if there are some sort of agreement, if there is an agreement between, let's say, the state Florida Department of Law Enforcement, with a local police department that, "Hey, if you help with immigration enforcement, we'll pay you some extra money."But the only way that they can do that is if they've put it in the report.Documenting it.So now I'm starting to see more and more reports about their immigration status, something that I've never seen in the past 3, 4 years when I was doing criminal defense.Wow.Yeah.That's pretty crazy.Well, youNot to get political.No, go, go for it.'Cause Brandon and I- Go for it.were talking about how political we wanna get.And the reason why I want to say that'cause you're sayingThe reason why I'm bringing this up is because you said, "I've never seen this before," and I- Yeah.think that there hasObviously there's been a change in administration since you started- For sure.practicing immigratecrimmigration, right?Yes.Um, which was, you know, back in 2021.Now we're in 2025, going to 2026.Wow.And so, there's just different people who are- Yeah.running the country now.Immigration can change overnight.And my mentor, Mark, he, he used to tell me, he's like, "Yeah, you, you think you know immigration, until a new administration comes and that's it.What you thought you knew, doesn't apply anymore.They can change it overnight."And I was like, "Man, that's tough," 'cause imagineAnd this is what I like about immigration is that you're constantly learning, and in criminal there's always changes too.So, that's why I wanted to get into immigration.But, uh, when there is a, an administration change, for example, in the last administration, it was a little bit more lenient, more forgiving, whereas this administration is more aggressive in terms of their enforcement.So, there's been a lot of policy changes which affect locally, and most of it is coming down to, "Let's arrest all of them.Or let, let's, let's arrest as much as we can, send them to a random jail in the country, separate them from their family, and see if they're willing to take a, a voluntary departure or, uh, uh, agree to a deportation."Kind of like a criminal case.Let's see if we can, know, arrest you, hold you without a bond, and see if maybe you wanna take a plea.Similar.Similar.And there's no distinction that you're seeing between people that are here with valid visas- Mm-hmm.and those who are, uh, overstayed their visa, correct?Or- Yeah, that's actually a, a great question, 'cause if you do have a valid visa, usually you should be entitled to release if you get flagged by immigration.But if you were an overstay, they're saying that that's an immigration offense, which is similar to a criminal charge.So, in immigration, if, if you get flagged by, uh, by ICELet's say you're, you came on a visa and you overstayed.Now they're saying, "We can deport you because you overstayed your visa, so we're gonna charge you under this type of offense," kind of like in criminal.And they issue a, a document that officially starts the process, kind of like the charging documents here in the state, which would be, like, an information.That triggers the whole proceeding.Wow.Uh, and now we're seeing that with visa overstays, but if you're here on a visa and it's good, and let's say you get picked up.I think we've seen, umWhat was it?The Hyundai factory workers?Not s- not sure if people saw that, but'Cause these were workers that were here on a visa, and they did a immigration raid at the factory, 'cause someone tipped off that there were immigrants working there.But la- uh, after the investigation, they were here.Legally, you know?But they still triggered the deportation process.Wow.Yeah.So, you started talking about this, and this is more so about the procedure, and you said that basically recently they've been triggering these ICE holds through documenting the reports that, you know, the, they'veif they check that this person washad status or not.What happens at that point when'Cause I know you said, like, sometimes you have to put, like, everything kind of on the back burner with the criminal case to work up the immigration case.So, once someone has an ICE hold label- Mm-hmm.what is the process with that?What happens with the criminal case in terms ofLike, how do they affect each other and intersect?Yeah, so normally if someone doesn't have criminal history or not g- like, they arethey live locally, they have ties to their community, they usually get out, right?If you're charged or arrested for a crime.But when there's an ICE hold, you can't get out.So, sometimes what we'll doand this is where we have to, like, really talk to the family, talk to the client, to see how strong your immigration case will be.Because if it's a really good immigration case, we're gonna use the criminal case to kind of buy time so we canThat way when ICE takes you, we're ready.Because the thing about immigration right now is time is hurting a lot of lawyers, because they'll get picked up by ICE, then, you know, the family members won't hear from their loved one who's detained by ICE for a few days and they don't know where they're at.Eventually they'll get a call, "Hey, I'm in Alligator, Alcatraz," or, "Hey, I'm here in Miami," or, "Hey, I'm actually here in Georgia."But if we are able to use the criminal case to kind of keep you here temporarily, so that way when ICE does take you, we can try to keep you here in Florida so that you're not separated from your family, that's a, a strategy that usually we, we, we try to do for an immigrant family that's facing these type of issues.But it really just depends on how strong their case is and if they wanna fight their case.And generally they do, 'cause their whole life is here.Right.So, when you're saying if they wanna fight their case, you're talking about the immigration case?Yeah.A lot of clients, once they get into thatonce they're in that environment where they've never been arrested before, they've never been in jail, they've been here for maybe 10, 15, 20 years, they'rethey, you know, they got married, they got kids, and, uh, their whole life pretty much is here.Once they're in that environment, in a jail cell, and then even if we win the immigration, I mean, the criminal case.Let's say we go to trial, we beat the case and it's a not guilty, they still have another battle to fight with immigration.Yeah, it doesn't go away.It doesn't disappear.No, it doesn't.And thankfully, like, that result could help in terms of release for immigration, but everything is so discretionary with immigration right now that even a, a complete dismissal of the charges is not enough, because hearsay is admissible in immigration court.Mm-hmm.So, when you have a police report, the prosecutors for immigration will rely on that even though we got a not guilty verdict, for example.And the immigration judges will rely on the, the report.How much weight-would they give to the outcome of the criminal case in immigration court?Hopefully, well, the, in a perfect world, a judge generally gives better weight to the result of the case because it's not a conviction, it's not a plea.But there's some judges that say, "Look, there's enough here based on what I've seen on the report to find that this person is not a good moral character, and that's enough for me to deny your, your relief," whatever your reliefWell, doesn't the charge matter?Oh, definitely.Doesn't the charge make a significant difference?Because there isThe idea that somebody that's been here, let's, I'm just gonna throw out numbers, let's say 10, 15 years, have kids here, have worked here, and they get stopped and pulled over for no valid driver's license, never been in trouble before.Otherwi- you know, have worked in this country the entire time they've been here and have done everything else the right way- Mm-hmm.but for whatever reason, they don't have their paperwork together and their- Yeah.stuff in line.That's not whatThat's not the only thing that you're talking about, correct?And you're not- Mm-hmm.And, uh, m- from what I see, that's not the primary example.That is theThat's the, the example and the solution.That's the individual that I think we can all agree shouldn't have that ICE detainer and shouldn't have that ICE hold.But that'sYou're seeing cases where we're talking about sex offenses, we're talking about cases where there are victims in the ca- Mm-hmm.you know, we're not just talking about the, the one-offs.Yeah, so, uh, if there's, like, a, a very serious offense, and this is, like, could be the sex crimes or let's say more violent offenses, like, uh, aggravated batteries, like those things, and they're, they're way more tougher to fight in immigration court, and generally those clients know.Right?They know, but then the criminal defense side has to come in at that point.It's like, "Okay, we know we have a huge battle in immigration, so what can we do in a criminal case?Is this a case that we can keep within speedy trial?Is this a case where we can try to see if there's a motion that we can file to maybe convince a better resolution or a reduction of the charges, so that way there's a chance to fight in immigration?"But if they're charged with, uh, crimes like that, and they're convicted of it or they plea out to that, it can be fatal for immigration.And those clients at that point will say, "I don't wanna fight.I'll do what I gotta do to heal my criminal case, and then whatever happens in immigration, I'll just deal with it."The starting out at the PD's office, they drill some things into you, and I think this is part of being in South Florida just because- Yeah.you know.And it's that adjudications are the same in immigration court- Yes.or, sorry.Withholds.Withholds.Withholds are the same as i- adjudication in, in criminal court as it would be in- Mm-hmm.immigration.I don't know if I'm saying that right.So, so, uh, non-conviction- Yes.is the same as a conviction, because- For purposes of immigration.in, in the state of Florida, and this does exist in other places, but I can specifically say here, there is a distinction where if somebody is either found guilty or pleads guilty, they can either be convicted- Mm-hmm.which is an adjudication, or they can have that conviction withheld, which is an i- a withheld adjudication.The distinction in immigration court doesn't really exist.They both are taken as guilty and- Yeah.taken as a conviction- Yeah.for the most part.That's still correct to this day.I mean, the law hasn't been really too favorable in immigration about withhold versus an adjudication, which is no conviction versus a conviction.To them, it's like, "You plead guilty.That's all we n- that's all we need to know."Yeah.Yeah.And then e- an- and then the other part is that the, the underlying charge, what is the underlying charge, and- Yes.if that charge is considered what w- what immigration refers to as a crime involving moral turpitude, which- Yes.is why you refer to, like, the bigger charges- Yes.because I think in immigration court, they do evaluate your moral character.Yes.Versus criminal court, it's, "Did you"Excuse me."Did you commit this crime beyond a reasonable doubt?"Yes.So, I think that that's kind of why maybe that immigration has this, like, kind of broader perspective of who this person is and if this person can or deserves to stay in this country.Yes.I mean, that's why they- Yeah.you know, want to deport.Yeah, it, it's tough too, because let's say someone, you know, came here at a very young age, maybe 3 or 4 years old, and then, you know, they grow up here, they go to high school here, and then I guess they get caught up with the wrong people.Next thing you know, they pick up a burglary charge or a robbery charge.And, uh, let's say they, they resolve it 'cause they don't wanna go to trial on it, and then they get transferred to immigration, and now we gotta try to convince the judge that this was a one-time offense, even though this was ais, which may be a conviction or not, but then can we argue to a judge that the facts of this case, does this make it an aggravated felony?Is this really that violent of a crime for him to be disqualified from asking for whatever relief that he's asking for in immigration court?And some judges can say, "Look, you know, I believe your case, you have a strong defense, you have good ties to the community, you made one mistake, I'm willing to give you this one chance."And there's mo- But most times they say, "You've been here, you know the laws," right?"You know what, what you're up against.Unfortunately, I can't grant you this relief."And then they get deported.know?And those cases hurt.Because sometimes you, you will get it on a misdemeanor too.And that's what happened, uh, with one of my other cases.He had a DUI, came here at a very young age, you know, I guess girlfriend trouble, and, uh, you know, we t- we went to trial, it didn't work out, but, um, we were trying to figure out what can we do in the criminal to help the immigration case and then, unfortunately, he was removed.And that one hurt 'cause his whole life was here.Yeah.He didn't even speak Spanish.SoAnd that's something I've- Yeah.seen a lot with, like, the DACA recipients.Yeah.Those r- those hurt.Yeah.Because they've lost their status.Yeah.Well, DACA's a interesting topic 'cause now we're seeing that there's been a lawsuit and they're trying to reopen the, the application so that people can apply, but, you know, when it first came out, it was great, and then I think in 2016, is that when the- I was in law school- Yeah.when it happened, yeah.When they took away- It was around that time.DACA- Yeah.under the, I guess, the, the current administration- Yeah.um, and if you didn't renew it, it was, that was it.Um, but now there's, like, lawsuits.Apparently, in, in Texas you can't get it, but if you, if you reside in a different state, you can try to reapply for DACA.And it's more complicated than that, but it really depends on, like, when you entered, your age, your date of birth, and things like that, but it's definitelyThose are, are, those are the ones that me as an attorney and as, I guess, a human being, those hurt.Yeah.Those hurt the most.Yeah.And- And DACA is the cutout provision for the children that were- Yeah.Brought here.that came in illegally.Yeah.For children that the, that came with their parents.Yeah.Yeah.Right.Okay.And they- And basically grew up here, though.And that- So- But that, this also raises a, a important question about the distinction.Does the distinction make a difference with how the people are coming into the country- Mm-hmm.that you're seeing in terms of how they- cases are handled?If somebody is here illegally- Mm-hmm.to begin with and has not done what they need to do to- Mm-hmm.Or, or the time has not, enough time has not passed for them to do that before they get caught doing- Yeah.something and get in trouble here, what's the implications on that side, on the immigration side, because they, their entry initially was illegal?Yeah.That's theAnd that's what they get charged with.Let's say they get picked up by ICE and they have committed no crime whatsoever.Let's say ICE is just doing a random traffic stop, um, underco- an undercover traffic stop, "We're gonna pull over this landscaping vehicle, this landscaping truck, and we're just gonna ask you guys, 'Hey, what's your name, what's your date of birth?What's y- what's your ID?You don't have it.Where are you from?'" They get transferred to an ICE facility and then they actually get charged for entering without inspection, which is similar to, let's say, like, any criminal charge, and that starts the whole process of a deportation case.And there's defenses to that, though.You can say, "Look, I agree that I'm chargeable as entering without inspection 'cause, you know, I, maybe I crossed the border," and that's the common way that people enter the US, um, at least immigrants, um, without going through the proper procedures.And there's defenses to that.You can re- uh, request an asylum, and there's something called withholding of removal, and then there's, uh, something called a cancellation of removal.And depending on which, uh, which defense you qualify for, that might be something that an immigration attorney can file to prevent a deportation.And it's, it's more complicated than that when it comes to a trial 'cause the laws are constantly changing, s- changing, especially for asylum.But, um, that's also another chance to at least continue with your case, let's see what happens.As time goes on, we'll, we'll develop your defense, and then once the trial comes, we'll submit all the evidence and then hopefully the judge will, will side with us.But at least throughout that whole process, they can get a work permit, they can get a driver's license, they can pay their taxes, and then hopefully demonstrate the good moral character to the judge.But that's not the only thing that they want.They wanna see that you actually have a fear or that you have, uh, some sort of relative that's a citizen or a resident, oh, and you've been here for over 10 years, things like that.Um, but yeah.To prove the a- to prove the asylum claim is what y- i- in that example.Prove the asylum or the cancellation of removal.Um, there's one specifically for victims of, uh, of domestic violence, it's called the Violence Against Woman, Woman Act, um, that one's a, it's called a special rule cancellation of removal.So there's a lot of defenses to being charged with entering without inspection or coming here illegally.It just, you know- But they don't check that when they stop them.They're just like- No."Go."No.And what w- what happened before in the past is like people will cross, obviously they don't have the papers to get here or even a visa to enter, but what border patrol will do is they will analyze their case very briefly, and they say, "Look, we don't got all this time to be figuring out if your claim is legit or not, so what we'll do is, like, look, we're gonna give you a court date with immigration, we're gonna let you in, we're gonna charge you for being here illegally, or charge y- for entering without inspection, but here's your court date, go fight your case in front of a judge and see what happens."And that's what happened now is the, is the opposite.And that isThat interaction that you just described is what would be considered an encounter, correct?Yes.That's how immigration, or border patrol- Yes.specifically calls that an encounter?Yes.So that's how when we hear numbers and statistics of how- Mm-hmm.many encounters there have been-with illegal immigrants that is just saying those- They got caught.Right.But- Yeah.caught, and then kind of, like- Yeah."Okay, here's your court date."But the court dates, in a lot of those circumstances, are like 10 years out.Yeah.Ridiculous amounts of time, right?Like 6 months away.Yeah.Right.It could beIt could be years, years down the road.Oh, wow.Okay.Years down the road.And that actually helps the client.But it obviously caused, um, some bigger issues in terms of immigration overall.Right.Um, and now that's probably why they're cracking down on enforcement.And now the laws have changed recently, where if you enter within the past, I think, 2 or 3 years, you can be put in something called expedited removal, which means, "We're gonna deport you without even seeing a judge."I did hear about that.Yeah, be- That's a new thing.Before, it's that you get charged with being here without inspection, file whatever defense that you think you qualify for, and then you're gonna see a judge, and then you'll try the case.But now, it's like, "Nope, you've, you've been here for this amount of time, less than 2 or 3 years, you obviously didn't enter with the proper documents, so we're, we're actually gonna just go ahead and put you in expedited removal, which means we're just gonna go ahead and issue a deportation internally, and you won't see a judge."Because instead of turning away those people initially- Yeah.they were just told, "You'll get a court date in 10 years."Basically.And now the system is trying to- I guess you could say, like, catch up.backtrack and catch up to that- Yeah.which isYeah.I mean, do you see the whole immigration system being overbird- overburdened with- Mm-hmm.with everything that's going on?Yeah.Right?And now you're not seeingI mean, obviously I'm not gonna ask you to give a specific time, date, but- Sure.like, you're not seeing clients that have come in in the last 9 months or so, and they are the ones that are getting picked up, correct?Not really.Okay.Yeah, not really.really.The ones that are coming in, if they are coming in, they ain'tthey ain't getting caught, you know?Right.SoBut who knows?I don't think- This is not the time to- Yeah.I think a lot of people abroad- Baffle.won't even try.And I think that's part of the, the tactic, that, you know, "If you're here, if you try to come here, you know, this is what you're gonna be going through."Yeah.And we have a lot of family members that, that reach out to immigration lawyers and says, "Look, I don't wanna be scared to go to work, you know?If, if they're gonna pick me up on the way to work or on the way to daycare, thenand then just be separated from my family, like, without preparation, without anything in place, I'd rather just go now."And so I've had, had some families that, you know, try to see if that's their best option.But that's just the reality of immigration right now.Can youOne of the, I believe, benefits of the self-deportation is you can come back at some point.Eventually.And there's something called, like, bars, where you can be facing a 5year bar, meaning you have to wait 5 years from when you got deported to then reapply to come back.There's a 10-year bar, depending on any immigration violations that you've had here in the, in the country.And then there's a permanent bar.But, like, after you wait the time frame, then you can ask consent to come back.And then that process is actually more helpful for a lot of people, because if they can show that they haven't committed any crimes here in the country while they were here, it was just simply that, you know, "We crossed or we overstayed our visa," and then you voluntarily left, then maybe you can come back if you bas- if you ask the, the US government for consent to reapply.A lot of people think that, "Oh, if I just wait 10 years and I just come back, I'm good."It's not the case.You gottaYou gotta ask permission first.Yeah.And is that only if you self-deport, or is that if you are- If you-deported by order also, there are, are- It, um-ways to come back?UsuallyIf you self-deport, it's treated the same way as if you were physically deported.Like, if the government physically deports you.But there's another option called voluntary departure, which you basically agree, kind of like a plea in criminal case."I agree that I'm charged as, you knowwith this immigration violation.I agree not to fight my case.I do have a right to file whatever defense that I can, but I'm giving up that right, forfeiting my, my application, and I will buy my own plane ticket, and I will go."Usually, that's, uh, you avoid a deportation.And then that's actually better, especially if they have a family member here in the country that can petition for them in the future, and that's pretty common for a lot of clients that are in process right now.Maybe their husband and wife petitioned them, or their parent or their child petitioned them, but it's just in process.So, we know that one day you'll, you'll, you'll get an interview, so you can leave on a voluntary departure.You're gonna have to come back anyway, so sometimes it strategically will work out for the client.But most times it'sThey're not in that position.They're not in, they get caught and then, you know, they haven't started any paperwork and then, you know, that's when ICE decides to do what they do, which is detain you, move you, uh, some random jail.Um, it's r- it makes it difficult for the immigration attorneys too because yeah, now the immigration attorney has like this barrier to communicate with their client and then clients usually break at that point because like, "I'm in Mississippi.I'm in Louisiana.I've never been here before.I have no ties here."And then they just sign, they just sign and be like, "I'd rather leave."How much of the immigration case, whether bad or good, can affect a criminal case, if anything at all?Yeah, so let's say it, you're charged with not a serious felony but maybe a felony or even a misdemeanor and let's say something really bad happened to you in your country which could cause a really good asylum defense.I would say like for sentencing, if you wanna do an open plea with the judge or let's say you go to trial and things don't work out and you have to do a sentencing, you can bring up all the bad stuff that happened to you in your country to kind of mitigate any sort of sentence or explain to the judge why maybe this, this happened the way it happened.Why he got arrested.Why this act or this criminal act, why it happened or played out the way it played out.And you'd be surprised at a lot of people that come from these, these countries that where the police and the government don't really protect them, they go through a lot of stuff.Yeah.You know?So I also, what I do, I just tell them that my client has immigration issues.Mm-hmm.And oftentimes it's, this works on lower level crimes- Yeah.because from my understanding immigration court will have certain, or I guess under immigration law, they'll have certain charges designated as crime involving moral turpitude.Yeah.So, you know, I know one of them is like a petty theft, right?Yes.That's one of them.You know, a DUI with a no valid attached is a crime involving no - Yeah.moral turpitude.But if it's separated- A DUI by itself, yeah, it's so weird.Uh, yes.Yeah, yeah.Um, but, you know, I'll be like, "Drop the no valid and we'll plea."Yes.That's exactly howAnd that's why I like knowing a little bit about immigration and criminal defense, I think it's, it's an asset for your practice.Yeah.Yes.But like, when you combine both, I think a lot of the clients who are going through that process, it's kinda hard for them to, first of all, understand the criminal system and then to understand the immigration system right after that.It's just a whole new world to them.So, um, what a crimmigration lawyer will try to do is try to explain both and try to m- use one or the other to kind of help the other case.And, uh, it's just, it's tough but it's, it, we have been seeing some results for a lot of families and the ultimate goal is just to bring them back home.Yeah.So St.Lucie County- Uh-huh.that's where I live.Yeah.But I do takeI, I have cases in Fort Pierce, uh, Martin County, Okeechobee County, as well as Palm Beach County.That's where usually I try to stay to help out those people.Do you see a difference between local enforcement and s- the State Attorney's office between the different counties in how they handle maybe like information when you're negotiating?Like, "Hey, you know, like this is a crime involving moral turpitude in immigration court.""He has an ICE hold.We still have to f- battle this out in immigration court.Drop the no valid."Like, how doesDo you see a difference between the counties?Before.Yeah.Not anymore.Now they're just kind of across the board.So they're all enforcing it.Yeah.They're not willing to negotiate.No.Now I have prosecutors telling me that, "Hey, your client's an unauthorized alien."I have seen the UA stamp on probable cause affidavits at first appearance.Yeah.There areSomebody is putting a stamp on different paperwork that is UA, unauthorized- Yeah.alien and that is, uh, because I have gone to first appearance and my client had an immigration hold- Yeah.and that was how I found out.And that's within 24 hours of arrest.Yeah, yeah.So they're doing this at, pr- probably like you're saying during the arrest.Correct.Yeah, I think I remember seeing this new policy that was signed for like all the, I think the state troopers, like FHP, Florida Highway Patrol, where they now have access to immigration status.What?Before it was just, you know, your d- we called it David, or your, your criminal history and your arrests and stuff like that, but now they have access to your immigration.I don't know why it wouldn't have that before.It's, uh, your record.It's gonna know everything about you.I think what- It should.It's gonna be interstate.Yeah, that's true.So it should know.ItI don't know, I feel like that'sI'm notI guess I'm not surprised by that- Mm-hmm.because I feel like it would be something that- Should've been there anyways.would come up because- Yeah.I know from being a prosecutor there were certain things that I would get access to.Backgrounds of an individual, and if there was an illegal re-entry in their past- Mm-hmm.it would be in there- Right.and I would see it.So I, I haveYou know, that stuff comes up so I guess I, I don't know.I'mI don't find that that's surprising.So now it goes beyond like your typical basic information, like does this person have a Social Security number or country of origin?Now is, do they have an immigration court?Does this person even have'Cause everything is by fingerprints, you know.But what's ha- what's happening with in the criminal context is when someone gets arrested and they've never been flagged by immigration or ICE, that's when the police then contacts ICE to say, "Hey, we got somebody.We don't know if this person has status."But, uh, yeah, we are starting, I'm starting to see more of those, those reports where they're talking about status which I don't think it really is relevant to whether or not this person did a crime or not.But I'm starting to see it.Yeah.I agree with that.I don't know if it's, it's necessarily relevant to the- Yeah.whether or not they did the crime, but to their background it's- Yeah.I, I feel like it's one of those things that you would, would come up.Yeah.You know?I mean, it's gonna come up within 24 hours anyways based on the way things are.So I feel like it would come up.Yeah.Heavy topic, man.Yeah, there's, there's a lot to, uh- Yeah, there's a lot of stuff.Yeah.But I think the biggest thing is becauseNow I will get a little political.Go for it.Um, a lot of people are like, you know, talking about these crazy criminals coming into this country illegally and committing all these crimes.Um, you know, that's not necessarily what we always see.It is sometimes, so I don't wanna say that that's not true because it can be and it is.Also, what is true is that people could be getting ICE holds for notfor driving without a valid license.Like- Yeah.that happens.Yeah.And it's happening now more frequently than ever.Yeah.I mean, I forgot the name of the operation but when I- when I was doing these, uh, these immigration hearings and these were like not related to criminal whatsoever, they didn't get arrested on a crime, I would get passengers of a car who had a license, who had a work permit, uh, who had a ca-who have a case pending and they're trying to do things the right way and on the immigration paperworkSo in criminal, we have something called a probable cause affidavit.In immigration, there's something called the I-213 which is kinda similar to like a police report where the ICE agent writes what happened and- and they would write, "We are collaborating with Florida Highway Patrol Operation blank."Right?"And we're gonnaWe just did a traffic stop of this car.We verified that this person has a case pending but we still decided in our discretion to take them in."So we're not seeing only cases where people are getting arrested with serious crimes or any crime.We're seeing people where, they're getting picked up, where they're a passenger of the car, they're not even driving, they don't have a record, they have a case pending and these are like undercover task force and, uh, that's- that's where the, uh, a lot of people have issues with 'cause they thought it was more so- more so the- the criminal, you know, immigrants but now we're starting to see it's actually both.Yeah.People that are here that are not doing anything wrong per se and, uh, obviously the- the heavy enforcement against people charged with serious crimes.And that's something you've seen transition kind of in the past few years?I would say in the pastsince- Yeah, I guess in the past-January.Yeah.Since January of this year.That's so crazy.For sure.So, we're up on time.Yeah.We need to wrap up.We can wrap.We can wrap it up.Okay.Well, thank you so much, Osaie for coming and educating us on this topic- Yeah.because I feel like I learned a lot, um, and I hope our audience did too and maybe we- Sure.can do a part 2 in the future but if you enjoyed listening to this podcast, make sure you like, comment and subscribe to our newsletter.We are on all platforms.For social media, we are comebackwithawarrant.pod.And if you didn't like listening to usCome back with a warrant.