Welcome back to "Come Back with a Warrant" podcast. I'm Brandon Dinetz. And I'm Monica Ishak. Today we will be talking about the realities of courtroom drama. As always, this podcast is for entertainment and educational purposes only. Nothing you hear today is legal advice. If you need help, hire a lawyer. Better yet, hire us. Well, welcome back. So today we're going to be talking about TV drama versus reality as it applies to the court.
For those of you at home, have you ever watched Law and Order or any type of legal drama and thought to yourself, I could do that. So many people have told me that. I get that all the time. I get, I hear people say, you know, I'm really good at arguing. I would be a great lawyer. It's like, you know, there's more that we do. There's a lot more to it than just that. But the truth is that TV can only and movies can only highlight the law in a certain way. And
As criminal defense attorneys, we get to see criminal law portrayed probably more than anything else in TV and in the movies. So there's nothing more frustrating than turning on a movie or TV and seeing the prosecutor give the absolute best cross-examination ever where it's so effective and they get the confession right on the stand. It just doesn't happen.
I know it doesn't happen and I trust me when I was a prosecutor I was hoping for those moments where the smoking gun would appear out of nowhere on the stand. There's just so much that goes into it that that's just not the way that it is. Yeah. You know everything from in an episode of Law and Order you go from arrest to the trial within you 20 minutes. my gosh. Meanwhile in reality it's mine. It takes forever. Right. Maybe even years. It could take years.
depending on how serious it is case is going to go on for a long time. So there are so many things that TV gets wrong. There are certain shows that get certain things right and even if they get certain things right on accident right like there was a TV show this past year about a jury and I think it was juror number 2 is the movie if I'm remembering correctly. In that movie. You know the one thing that I took away.
There was so much that was wrong with the movie, but the thing that I took away from it was, this what jurors are really like in the room? Is this what jurors are really thinking? In that, they were taking things into account that they shouldn't have been. They were talking about, oh, did you see this witness's tattoos? Did you see this, you know, that, that is one of the only times I've watched a legal show and thought to myself, oh, this is a little bit scary because that.
is potentially realistic and not in the way that I'd want it to be. Yeah. And I think that does probably happen. We're human. Like people are human. they make it's it's so the law is so everybody wants to think it's like black and white. And like when judges give the instruction according to what they're supposed to give, obviously, it's it's like in hopes that everybody is doing their job or playing within their like being.
within their bounds, you know what I mean? So we really do trust the jurors to not engage in that behavior or like do things that they're not supposed to do. But there are times where we've heard things where like people come out later, other jurors who were deliberating with certain jurors that may have done something and then it comes out and it's like super scary to see because it's like, these are the people we are entrusting to make really important decisions and other people like
affected by this, our clients. Yeah, and for people that may be listening and maybe don't know, the way that the process works, when a jury is sworn in and they are impaneled as the jury that's going to be hearing a case, the judge reads out certain instructions to the jury. And those instructions include things like, don't do any research, don't look up this case and try to find things on the internet about this case.
Don't look into the lawyers and try to look up who the lawyers are and what they do or their personal lives. There's things that you're specifically instructing these jurors not to do because they are supposed to make their decision based on the things they're hearing in front of them that's presented in front of them, the law that's given to them by the judge, and then the facts as they are presented through the evidence by the parties. Yeah. Yeah.
And even when we're making our arguments, the lawyers, what the lawyers say is not evidence. That's an instruction they get. like even when we're talking to them, that's not something they're technically, I mean, they should consider in terms of aiding them to come to a conclusion, which is what they're instructed on. But that's not, you know, gospel to them. It's the witness, what the witness says and if they believe the witness and all these things. So obviously, there's so many different like courtroom dramas on TV, like
When we were talking about the confession to my what comes to my mind is the legally blonde moment where you know the the Daughter I forgot her name the daughter confesses to the murder on the stand, which is you know every prosecutors dream Is that somebody would confess in the middle of trial? in that situation that's probably not the prosecutor's dream because that's not even their defendant that was that was a saying that was the defense dream getting somebody else to admit to
I know my legal movies. But yeah, mean, that's not, there's a lot in legal drama that is heightened because you wanna make it more exciting and more dramatic. mean, oftentimes the direct examination of a police officer in a DUI case is not very exciting. It's boring. Very boring.
So if you have a two hour movie or a 30 minute episode or a one hour episode, you're not going to be showing those are not the things that you're going to be showing the things that are say I have had a couple real life moments that I'm like, my gosh, like this would this like moment needs to be on TV. Do share.
They often come up, and I'll give you a case where I, it was my first felony trial actually, but they often come up in domestic situations when I'm cross-examining the victim. And I don't know if gender comes into play from a male attorney's perspective when they're cross-examining a female victim. But from my perspective, I really don't give a shit if you're a male or a woman on the stand.
treating it based off of what I'm doing for my client or whatever the defense is. But in this situation, it was a domestic.
Yeah, it's just laughing at it because I'm like I actually ordered the the the recording of it of the court Yeah, the trial and I do I do want to post it but I can't because when I order it it says like you can't post it anywhere and all this stuff so anyways, I can't share it but I can tell you so in the middle trial cross-examining the alleged victim who is accusing my client of false imprisonment domestic battery by strangulation
I remember what else he was charged with, like a bunch of charges. We basically won that trial because it was five to one, not guilty, hung jury. And then we got him misdemeanor. So it was a great outcome. I was really annoyed because I was ready to try the case again. I was like, let's go. And he was like, no, I'm just going to which was the right move, honestly. Yes, of course. A lot of times it is. Anyways, besides the point he she was making allegations that.
And she like loved I think she loved being on the stand. I really do. I think she loved the drama she was putting on and she was testifying that my client was keeping her from leaving the house. And I asked her. You refuse medical attention. And she was a physician. And she goes, I am medical attention. I literally stopped and I looked at the jury and they were all like.
like straight face, and I was like, did you guys not hear that? Like that was to me, it was so funny. Like I literally started laughing almost like I think they saw that I thought it was funny, but that was one part of it. But leading up to that moment, she was making like the craziest allegations about my client. So that's why it was like very it like to me, I maybe it was just like in the moment, but I was like, this is crazy. You know what I mean? Like she was just like saying like he was like grabbing her by the neck, strangling her.
You know, dragging her out of the house. I don't remember what else she was saying, and none of it made sense. So. Then when I asked her if she like was seeking medical attention, she was like, after all these crazy injuries, she allegedly received and she was like crying on the stand, like actually making a drama. So I was like, she was doing the work for me, honestly. I was like. This is gold, but. One of the jurors believed believed her clearly.
Yeah, but it doesn't matter because it was five to one. Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's not guilty but whatever at the end of the day it was I thought it was a courtroom drama moment and I thought it was Amazing. I was like this is so good and now like my sister was watching that trial and like till now We always like make jokes about that
think the real courtroom drama comes from the unexpected. Yeah. I think that anything you're anticipating is not going to be that dramatic. The answers that you're anticipating that are going to sound the worst for a certain witness is not going to be the most dramatic moment. That the witness admitting that they did something improper, not really the most dramatic moment. It's the moment where something happens
And this was unexpected. Now, how does this change the outcome? I'll give you a perfect example. I was in a battery trial. It was a misdemeanor battery trial. The alleged victim was taking the stand. She was speaking in Creole. There was a Creole interpreter. She was explaining to the jury what happened. Wasn't a very violent...
incident, but it was a battery at this. This man had, you know, struck her out. They were in a parking lot of their apartment complex and got into an argument. They had known each other and he did. He did strike her.
She's on the stand testifying through her interpreter and all of a sudden, out of nowhere, the defendant stands up and yells at her in Creel, you bitch, they're gonna put me in prison for this. The judge asked the jury, I was the prosecutor. The judge asked the jury to stand up and leave the courtroom. The jury left.
The first thing the judge did was looked at the interpreter and said, what did he just say? And she repeated, the interpreter repeated, you they're gonna put me in prison for this, you bitch, I'll kill you, whatever the effect, whatever it was, something real bad. And the judge goes, okay, I'm holding you in contempt. she looked at the defense attorney and she looked at the...
per the individual and she said tell me give me one good reason why I shouldn't put you in jail for six months and the the you know the defense attorney and the the defendant basically just said you know I apologize I my emotions got the better of me and she immediately gave him six months contempt my gosh and he flipped out
and we had closing arguments. He was not in the room for the closing arguments. He was downstairs in the holding cell for the closing arguments. There was a cell phone that was on the podium that was his defense attorney while he was giving his closing argument was giving it on a telephone. So that way the defendant could hear the closing argument, but he wasn't allowed in the courtroom for it. And the entire jury saw it.
And ultimately he was found. yeah, he was found guilty and he he was sentenced to six months on the battery to be concurrent with the six months from the contempt. And that was. You don't get courtroom drama like that, no. And, know, it's a case that goes from he said she said to you have just opened up a case where I now can walk in front of this jury and say,
The guy that violently just stood up and screamed, that guy, yes, he's the one that struck her. He's the one that made her as afraid as she was. He hit her. This is where the battery is. And it was a few minutes and it was a guilty verdict. Yeah, that definitely sounds like. And it was, yeah, I remember that trial. That was legit.
But that's, I would have needed to be that lawyer. But the thing is, and it was against, it was not against a public defender, it against a private lawyer. Of course. Who he, like, don't. He's like, he's his best. Yeah, there's he was all he could do. I mean, I remember when the judge said, do you have any explanation for why you acted like that? The defense attorney looked at the judge and said, I mean, my client said he was sorry. Like, that's all the guy could say, so. could he say, yeah. But that's to say that in real life, there is.
There are certain moments of drama, but they just come from what's unexpected. Yeah. In these movies and in these moments when the prosecutor is asking a certain line of questions, he's ready for that answer. He's ready to have that shock and awe moment in front of the jury. And it just, doesn't happen. No, no. That and there are so many things that prosecutors say in movies and in TV that they cannot.
say in real life. So many things are objectionable. mean, making out making defendants out to be monsters, smoke and mirrors, denigrating the defense. There are so many things that prosecutors do in movies and in shows openly in front of a jury that they cannot do in real life. That would be a mis-trial or would would, you know, result in an appeal. Yeah. And so speaking of like drama moments, we
the most famous and this is I think a favorite for a lot of lawyers and judges because we always make references for my cousin Vinny. Yeah, of course. And I think he does a pretty decent cross examination. My cousin Vinny has some good, like he's some good cross examinations. Yeah. But again, you know, this is and we're going to show a clips shortly. But again, you know, you're it that is a fictional attorney in a
situation that. He was doing certain things on the fly. He was cross examining on the fly and getting these great answers on the fly. You're in a you're in a homicide trial like you're not doing anything on the fly. No. But he was. Yeah. And which which scene set up the scene we're going to show. So the scene we're going to show is going to be when he grabs the tape measure and he's cross examining the witness. I don't remember her name. Don't quote me on names, but.
He's grabbing the tape measure. I think it's a hundred feet. He pulls it back and he asked her to put her glasses on and ask how many fingers am I holding up to show that she either had bad eyesight or her vantage point was a good or both, which he was successful in doing. So when she says he was holding up four fingers and he was actually holding up two. All right, let's roll. Let's roll the tape and let's see exactly what the clip looks like.
All right, so let's talk about that.
Obviously, right off the bat, something that jumps out to me, you're never going to yell at the judge. No. As a defense attorney, as a prosecutor, as anybody, you don't yell at the judge. You don't talk back to the judge. what the judge did was improper. True. Sure. So what so this is also a good point to make is how would you have handled that, Brandon? Because for me, I would have been like, Judge, I need to approach.
Immediately. I would have just put my hands up and just looked at the judge and just been like, what the fuck? What are you doing? Why are you ruining my case? Yeah. What's funny to me is that the lawyer in my cousin Vinny, the lawyer literally put his hands up and put two twice. He's like, how many fingers am I holding up to? And then the judge is saying, let the record reflect that he's holding up two fingers. And then he goes, judge, whatever yells at him. And he goes, now how many fingers am I holding up?
same two fingers. That is such a funny movie. That's an amazing movie. When I was studying trial advocacy one summer, I got to take a seminar on my cousin Vinny and what it was about was my cousin Vinny and jurisdictional practice, meaning how do you
as a lawyer go into different jurisdictions and practice and what are the things that you need to do differently? Every jurisdiction is going to have certain different quirks. When you say jurisdiction, is it like different counties, states, court houses in general? Okay. Really practicing in front of different judges, there's going to be different procedures, different nuances, different rules.
And in my cousin Vinny you have very much a fish out of water who is going to a rural southern town to practice law when he's clearly a city slicker and you don't it's you know, something that was always been interesting to me is how do you adapt your style and To fit where you are. Yeah
And for me, you I grew up in New York. I've always had a bit of a New York accent and I have heard forever that, you know, I sounded like my cousin Vinny coming into a courtroom or like comments like that because I moved down to Florida. I was practicing in Florida and generally people don't have the same accent. Yeah. So I've heard I've heard the comparison, but the the truth is, you know, the accent doesn't always score you points. Yeah.
If I had a smooth southern accent, that's a little bit different. That scores you some points in front of the jury. There is a very, very effective public defender that had a very smooth Jamaican accent. And I'm sure you know who he is. he, I mean, the accent alone got you points with the jury. Yeah. So there's certain intangibles that you can't always, you don't always know what types of points you're going to get with the jury. But I knew when I
was getting the my cousin Vinny, you know, references, it was probably time to try to not talk with such a strong heavy accent. Yeah. Try to adapt a little bit to where I was. Yeah. Which I think at this point, my accent's kind of fallen off. No. It's so there? A little bit. I hear it sometimes, but yeah. Certain words. Exactly. My wife says when I and first thing in morning when I say coffee, it's yeah, coffee is bad. Bad.
You're basically a Floridian now. Yeah, it's mean, there's so many, there's so many New Yorkers and New Jersey, New Jerseyans. don't know, whatever. Tri-state people here. So they're all, they're all blended in with us. So I guess we've adopted them. the traffic by a little bit of time. Yeah. A few years now they've taken over. Yeah, that's right. But also another aspect of TV drama, courtroom drama is that they love to make people
There's, mean, any type of movie show, whatever, entertainment, there's always some sort of protagonist and antagonist. And they like to make somebody the hero and the villain. And, you know, usually defense, we're villains, but sometimes we're heroes. I mean, my cousin Vinny is the hero. I grew up a massive wrestling fan and Stone Cold Steve Austin was always known as the antihero. So I have been one that's grown up a fan of the antihero, whether it's...
Stone Cold Steve Austin or Tony Soprano or. Insert name of one of my clients, I am I am always on the side of I've always been on the side of the antihero, so you know, whether it's real life or the fake life, there's something I guess it resonates in in that. And yeah, well, I was going to say, I feel like real life we. My experience and this speaks to certain people's biases, I think, but.
We are treated as defense attorneys like the villain in the courtroom. Yeah, I mean, we're respected, but they don't usually like what we're saying ever. No, it's like, why are you even talking? Yeah, that's true. But I like I do find that people when you when you have something to say. And it's if you are speaking with conviction about your case, even if it's not the
Position that the other side wants to hear yeah, they can listen to it and respect it. Yes, and that's that's what that's what's so important Yeah, and that's why that is so true That's important with TV and in real life if the lawyers aren't talking with conviction and it's just not You know, it's not believable. Yeah and respecting each other's Work I guess like that just whatever you want to call it, but like if I'm if I'm speaking in the courtroom
I mean, we shouldn't be cutting each other off. We shouldn't be disregarding. But, you know, there are some attorneys that can control themselves and that's fine, but it's not best practice. So now I agree. Yeah. TV, I think, loves to make villain hero like kind of an aspect of it. Yeah. Obviously, that shouldn't even come into play when the judge is on the bench in terms of like playing favorites in a sense. Excuse me. I agree. I think that certain
Unfortunately, certain courtrooms can be more of a tough environment for the defense side. Yeah, think specifically when you're talking about like domestic violence courtrooms. Yeah, you're walking in certainly as that. You know, the villain role. Yeah, for sure. And you are.
I've experienced this in every domestic trial or standing around. I've been in when I cross examine a victim. I am a villain in their story. I am the villain. You are the villain in the story, not even my client. Like I am the most hated person there by them. And I walk in knowing that. So like it is what it is. And I understand that. I honestly respect it. Like if they have they feel like they're speaking their truth by all means. But I have a job to do. So it doesn't really affect me by at all. At first, when I first started practicing, I was like
How am going to handle it when they like lose it and they have their emotions? And like now it's like with time, you kind of just have experience to know how to deal with certain types of reactions. Right. With the one I was talking about earlier, my first, my first felony trial, I, I played into it. It worked in my favor. It was like over dramatic, but sometimes the drama is actually very real and the jurors relate to it and they feel it or like the judge feels it. And like they're making the decision on a standard ground or whatever it is. like, I think I had
I have been on both sides of like, it's very obvious this person's overplaying their story or whatever, they're being overdramatic. And then there are other times where it's like, they're probably telling the truth and I still have to do my job. You know what I mean? I still have, I'm sorry. It is what it is. Not sorry, not sorry. And we're gonna have a whole episode where we talk about domestic and victims' rights and what those situations look like on both sides. Yeah.
That's true. mean, you know, there's the feeling almost that when you go into a domestic courtroom, you know, you almost feel like the odds are stacked against you differently than in a regular than in a different courtroom, even though you know the standard and the burden is still that beyond a reasonable doubt in that courtroom. It sometimes feels like it's an even higher burden. for us.
For specifically for the defense and I think that the state attorney's office and the judge in the courtroom are the ones that are really in control of that and how that feels. But that's been, I think in all of the years that I was on either side, domestic violence specifically.
That's how that is. That courtroom is very much, if you're walking in and you're a defendant in that courtroom, are, you're walking in with the odds stacked against you before, you know, it's not an innocent until proven guilty type of feeling in those courtrooms. No, and unfortunately there's so many like arrests that are made that shouldn't be made in domestic, but they have to make it because it's their policy that somebody called for domestic, so they have to make an arrest and.
You it is what it is there are so many other things and we'll talk about all this conversation for another episode, but back to the realities of the part the realistic parts of TV, you know, they do get some parts right like I Think some bond hearings, right? Yeah, and sometimes they do show the stress sometimes they show the stress of like trial
Maybe not the preparation or anything that goes on the back end. I think that's something they really don't show. But the aspect of like the stress on the attorney, the defense attorney, sometimes they'll show that because of the stakes. Like the stakes are so higher, like they're facing life or whatever it is. So that's something I think that is sometimes shown. Legally Blonde, showed it, you know. They did show the preparation, but that, mean, it's...
It's definitely like, I am exhausted by the time I start trial. Well, it's months and months and months. By the time you get to the actual trial, it's like, let's just get it, get this part over ready. if you are at such high stakes, we're talking about months of preparation, we're depositions potentially, depending on the type of case. We're talking about experts. We're talking about evidence reviews.
knowing different statements made by the same person. different part. Yeah. That's also like you have to know so well to be able to cross examine someone like you need to know it better than the witness. Well, the rule of thumb is, know, you never ask a question you don't know the answer to. And that's definitely something when you're watching TV and movies. my God, they love to do that. They love to ask questions they don't know the answer to. Yeah. It's like, how do know you're going to get that? And then they get it. They get what they Well, right. They get what they want. And then everybody's like, I can be a lawyer. Right.
It's not how it is. Nobody admits. Nobody's willing to admit they did the thing. Yeah. Also all, feel like almost all the defendants testify in movies and in TV. Yeah, that's like barely a thing. I mean, I shouldn't say barely. I've it here. I would say like 25 % of the time is when my clients do choose to If you have a self-defense issue. Yeah. Yeah. I mean. Or like they have a fact that I can't bring out otherwise. Right.
And then I'm like, okay, well, this is the only way we can get it in. there's just, mean, so much risk associated with it. And then you have to pray that the jury doesn't take it, hold it against them for not testifying. Yeah. Which I think, but I think most juries don't. Yeah. I think jurors understand that. And I think it's that comes in to play with jury selection. We can talk more about like the process of trial at another episode because yeah, I think we can talk for a on jury selection itself. course. But
going into like the labor of preparing for trial, do you have like a process for yourself? Like where you start or like how you, how you, like obviously like you have to prepare for depositions and take them and do all those things. But like when you actually start and prepare your stuff for trial. I prep from the middle. So I like to prepare, as prosecutor and defense. I did that as a prosecutor and I do that as a defense attorney. I like to put together.
pieces of the puzzle that the prosecutor believes they have. And then as the defense, where are the holes? Where's the reasonable doubt? Where are the conflicts in the evidence? Where are the different issues that I can exploit to do my job effectively and defend the case? And if I can beat myself, that's how I know I'm on the right path. I have a good understanding of what the prosecutor is going to throw at me.
And I think if I'm prepared, there shouldn't be any surprises at all for what the prosecutor or their witnesses can throw at me. I can be prepared for all of those possibilities, but I also look at it and say, okay, if I needed to get a conviction here, what would I do? How would I prove it in front of a jury? What are the things that I would say? And ultimately what that does for me is when it comes down to the actual trial,
and the prosecutor gets up and they give their opening and I've already heard those theories of defense because I've already been thinking of them and I've already heard some of their theme and I've already heard different parts of their case, I immediately get up during my opening and I can flip some of their case right before the case even gets started and then I can be very effective defending the case because I've already prepared for their totality of the circumstances argument or you know.
whatever is going to be the, the, just the thought of somebody pretending or thinking that they may be guilty, that consciousness of guilt argument. I'm ready. I'm ready for that. I'm ready for what's going to be thrown at me. and those are the circumstances where, and now that doesn't mean that the case that the other side's presenting against you is weak because they may have a very strong case. state attorney's office may have a very strong case.
And there are circumstances where, no, you're not going to able to beat all of these issues. But the benefit of our legal system and our position is we are able to point out, we don't have to point out every single doubt. We don't have to point out that, you know, we just have to illuminate a reasonable doubt. And if we're able to do that and a jury is able to find that there's a reasonable doubt, we've done.
the best job for our clients. Yeah. I mean, sometimes the defense is reasonable doubt. Correct. Sometimes we don't have an actual defense. You know what I mean? Like it's like we another explanation or another reason for why they're saying this happened. Sometimes it's just that it's not, it wasn't my client because they cannot prove it beyond a reasonable doubt. Well, right. And that's, that's often what, you know, often the state attorney's office is relying on if they take every grain of sand.
that they can put together and stack it on top of each other, then the totality will give them this clear guilty verdict. know, oftentimes that's not the case. And that's something that we're able to show for our clients. that's in contrast to TV and in the media, you know, there's so much shock and awe during a trial in a TV show.
that it almost is like, okay, well, whatever this defense attorney was already planning on, now it's somehow changed, or this defense attorney knew all along that something was gonna fall apart for the prosecution in the middle of the trial. It's just, that's not how it happens. And the thought that that even could happen with how hard we prepare for trials, we...
we kind of contemplate a lot of those scenarios. So there's no, that shock is gone because we've kind of said, okay, if this happens, I'm kind of ready for it. If this happens, I'm kind of ready for it. You you can plan out things to the best of your ability. Yeah, yeah, for sure. I usually like have an idea. So I don't actively think like how the prosecutor is going to go through their witnesses and present this witness with this testimony to like figure out.
But I usually have an idea like, they're gonna like they turn over all the evidence in advance. We review it. So we know there. That's why you're saying there's no surprises because we know what they're going to present. And if we don't have it, they cannot present it. So. Why are you looking at like that? No, no, I'm agreeing with you. I'm agreeing with you. OK, I thought I thought you were going to be like, that's not true. And I was like, no, no, no, no, I totally agree. I totally agree with you. But.
When it comes down to like the actual issues in the case, I think early on you kind of have an idea of like, okay, this is going to be the prosecutor is going to have a hard time in this department. yeah, we can agree sometimes. I mean, some defense attorneys will agree to prove certain elements. Like they'll literally be like, you don't even have to try to prove a through C, but we're going to be arguing over D and then that's the issue of the trial. know, so, you know, like it, it just depends, but
I usually have an idea, obviously, like most attorneys do in advance of trial. And that's what you focus on in like all of the depots or whatever. And then when it comes time to prepare for trial, I become like obsessed with what the witnesses said in their depots or like what the police put in their police report. Like, I think that like, there's so much and if there is a surprise in trial, that's impeachment right there. Like if you're going to say something that you never said before, you swore under oath previously.
that this was complete and true and final and everything was in this one document and now you're adding X, Y, and Z in there. Where was this information when we talked in the depot 10 months ago or 10 weeks ago or whatever, like much closer in time to the date of the incident. So like all of these things. So that's why I feel like it's so important to like focus on like witness statements. Obviously sometimes there's like video surveillance or like.
They use like a picture plus like a witness statement, plus, know, like all these things, like what you're saying, like these little pieces of the puzzle that come together. But usually there's like points of attack that I see and I'm like, OK, like this is where I can really get get in there. So then I become like obsessed with every statement and prepare based off of that. So like that's usually my. Mode of preparation for trial, but I.
really am like I think by the time trial starts, even if it's a misdemeanor trial, like a one day misdemeanor trial, if there's like, I mean, obviously it's not the exhaustion won't be to the level of like us more serious like felony where I'm spending days and maybe even weeks like preparing, but it's definitely like an exhausting process that is not shown on TV at all. Even if you know your client's not gonna testify, you have to still prepare them.
and talk to them about it. like that alone is a whole conversation. And if they're like, I'm still on the fence and then you're like, okay, well, we'll prepare you just in case. And like, this is what you're gonna, you know, we're gonna say it like this, you know, we're not gonna say it this way. Yeah. Cause they really don't know they haven't testified before they haven't been in front of a jury usually before. So that whole process is like, you're educating your client, you're preparing yourself.
You know, you're whoever's if you're doing it with somebody, you're also preparing them and getting them on board and doing all the things. So it's a whole process because even though we're not like pen to paper, everything we're saying is like what's going to come out of our mouth and trial. At least for me, I prepare. I write down everything I hope to say. But am I going to say everything? No. But I need to like prepare accordingly. So for my opening statements, I'm going to write out my opening and I'm going to make an outline and use my outline.
If I forget something and look at my outline and go from there, but like I really do make sure that I have everything I need. So that way, if I forget or I have like my moment in court, I have whatever I need to fall back on. And I have my extra, my extra statement for impeachment, for the judge or for the, for my opposing counsel, whatever it is. So there's so many different aspects of trial prep that are not shown on TV. Like even just preparing your trial binder. You know I mean? Like there's so much shit, like, like none of that is shown. None of it.
Like right now. Right. I'm up your sleeves getting on the weekend and glasses on and a giant thing from Dunkin Donuts of coffee. And you're just like, I have a conference table that's just covered in papers. Literally just trying to figure it out and put it all together. I know. I mean, but that's part of the that's like, you know, that's part of the love of the game. I mean, yes, a football coach loves going into.
watch old film and review different, know, it's the same. This is a, the love of the game. The preparation that you put in comes from that love. And the love of the trial, the love of the case and the love of defending people, that all comes together and culminates and you're able to put together the strongest presentation moving forward and putting it, putting it out there. But
There's no way a television show could ever like, feel like it would be the most boring thing. It would be a very boring show. what is this shit that we Yeah. It'd be like a whole episode of somebody reading one statement. Like that's not, it's, my God. But that's the type of thing that could, a whole case could hinge on. And for us, that's everything. Could come down Living in the minutiae. Right. Yeah, exactly. It comes, it's literally the devil's in the details. Yeah, that's right. So I've had that as my theme in travel. The devil's in the details?
Like that's I've heard. That's I've heard before. I've definitely used that. I've heard that one before. I definitely heard that before. He's heard it from me. So in in essence, you know. Would we would we still, I guess, choose this path knowing it's not as glamorous as TV world makes it up to be? Would we still choose?
this path. I can tell you as somebody that was inspired growing up by movies and television to become a lawyer that yeah, I would 100 % still choose this path. And I know what it takes to get here and I know what it takes to be here and I know what it takes to keep growing as an attorney and I would still, I would do it again. I would choose it again. I love what I do. I love helping people. I truly love being in the courtroom and love the fight.
on each each case. Yeah. And I feel like what we're talking about in terms of like the preparation with trial, it's like, that is what makes it rewarding. Like, obviously, you're helping someone. That's the part. But like when you do all that work on the front end, and then like, it things obviously never go perfectly in court, even if you win.
And then you end up getting like that not guilty verdict or like the verdict for your client that's favorable. Maybe sometimes it's a lesser or whatever, like or a hung jury, which results in a misdemeanor offer, whatever it is. It's like, OK, I put in all that work. It's it's not for nothing. And it's not to say that people who are guilty don't deserve that work. Like, no, they do still deserve that. But that's the part that like fuels me to keep going. Like, OK, like this is meaningful. Like I'm actually having some sort of.
positive impact on somebody's actual life. Yeah, you it's like so rewarding in such a like non tangible way that I feel like there's like walking out of a courtroom with a not guilty is such an unbelievable feeling like it's so great, know, especially like I mean, sometimes I've had prosecutors say like this is a not guilty and like they know, you know, I knew I knew there were trials when I when I that it was going to be a not guilty and I still had to prosecute the case. I knew what it was going to be and it is what it is. It is what it is.
You don't take the slam dunks to trial. So that's that's what it is. Yeah, but also on another side of it is I feel like being an attorney in general has just made me grow so much as a person that I would not have chose chosen like any other path. And I mean, going back, if I know what I know now, you know, I really feel like this is the most rewarding and challenging job like I could have ever chosen. And it was like
I think perfect for me, you know, like, like I said, like from the jump, I was scared of public speaking, but like here I am, you know what I mean? I'm, doing it I'm sometimes I still get the butterflies or whatever, like in the adrenaline still going, but I'm enjoying it now. You know I mean? Like even though it's not as dramatic as TV. Yeah, exactly. All right. Well, that's everything that we have for today's episode. make sure that you like follow subscribe anywhere that we are.
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