Welcome to Come Back with a Warrant podcast. I'm Monica Ishak. And I'm Brandon Dinetz. On today's episode, we'll talk about the reality of domestic violence cases, victims' rights and the double edged sword of Marcy's law and the plea deal trap. As always, this podcast is for entertainment and educational purposes only. Nothing you hear today is legal advice. If you need legal help, hire a lawyer. Better yet, hire us. Welcome back. Another episode of come back with a warrant very excited to be here with you. Yes, interestingly enough today's episode is a topic that I think we're going to get a lot of feedback on. We're talking about domestic violence cases and I think we're to be talking about them from a perspective that's different than what people generally think. We're not going to be talking about them in a sense of well, you know, there's just these people that are accusing people of domestic violence and neither.
men or women are just accusing people left and right and it's all BS. No, that's not at all what we're coming at it from. The truth of the matter is that in the state of Florida, if the police are called and it is a domestic incident, somebody is going to jail. And it's not always the intent of the person that's calling 911 to put the other person in jail. Often it's to defuse the situation,
to make things a little bit, really, to bring the temperature down on an argument or just to scare somebody. And that's not what happens. Yeah, and the way you worded that, really like that because you said when the police are called, sometimes the person that calls the police is the one that gets arrested. Yeah, for sure. It's like, I called you guys to come help me and you guys are taking me with you? Yeah. And that happens a lot. there's always, on the body-wearing camera, I always see the officers.
y'all call this so we had and you called us plus domestic, someone's gotta go, you know? Right. So it's funny because I think, you know, get one before we get into Marcy's law, but I really do think it's a double edged sword because of the way it functions and the avenues it gives certain people, specifically victims or alleged victims in those cases. So we'll get there, but
Yeah, when you said like when the police are called, I was like, that's so real. Like the way you said it was just so good. going into the reality of domestic violence, obviously, and I mentioned this before on other episodes where, know, people, we were talking about like villains and heroes and people are just always going to feel like they're there. It's going to feel a little bit more personal when it comes to domestic violence.
versus another case where it's like a theft case or whatever, you know? Or even a regular battery case, because usually those parties don't know each other. But when you get to domestic violence, you're getting into people's shit. Yeah. No, you are getting into the most personal of their personal life, and it's the worst part of their personal life. And I think we can't make the caveat enough. There are so many legitimate
domestic violence calls and claims that happen. And when I say legitimate, I mean that there is an actual abuser, there is an actual victim, and it is warranted for the police to be involved and for there to be some sort of intervention in a bad scenario. That is true, that is out there. But what we see a lot of is a situation where the police are being used just to try to scare somebody else or
you have a person who's not really a victim, but knows a little bit about the system and the situation and is now using the situation to their benefit. Because, I'll give you a perfect example. I've had clients that were professionals. I had a client that was a doctor, no prior criminal history, and he and his wife got into an argument. The wife called the police.
The wife said that he had pushed her. My client said that nothing had happened. And legitimately, just a push, I'm not exaggerating for the story, just a push, my client was arrested. Now he has had his license as a doctor called into question. He has lost clients over this. And the criminal case is gone. The criminal case is already dismissed because the wife
entered a non-procedated of non-prosecution. She didn't want to prosecute. She didn't want this to go as far as it did. And coming to like speaking about not just physicians, but like even being on the school, a teacher, right? Or a nurse, any sort of, like if there's a professional board evaluating you or your license or your competency to be able to practice or function in your career.
Like that is going to be a secondary and like obviously your freedoms on the line. So if it ends up going away because of the non prosecution affidavit, which often happens, and then they have to deal with the actual issue, which is like their livelihood and the wife in your scenario would be benefiting, I'm sure from his career. like she's shooting herself in the foot by. Even engaging in this type of like getting police involved over something like this, because at the end of the day,
Now he has to deal with maintaining his license if he can. I think the Florida bar is very, I think they're pretty reasonable when it comes to attorneys when they get arrested and in trouble because I think there are some people that have had histories that are able to kind of prove their character in fitness and still become in practice attorneys. But other
Boards are not as gracious. You know, I mean, it's still a hard process. You still have to prove all these things. You still have to show all these things with the Florida bar. But other other boards are like, if you have that by like, we don't even want to talk because you're an accused domestic abuser. Yeah. Yeah. Nobody wants that. Yeah. Nobody wants to hire the person that's been charged with domestic violence. It so much worse than what it is. Horrible. Yeah. Especially when it comes to like, oh, you're talking about the facts. It's a push versus when you say domestic violence, right? If it's a push and it could be it could be as simple as
Two people that live together that are married or in a relationship are arguing and one is like, screw you, I'm walking, I'm getting out of here, I'm leaving the house and goes to walk past the other one and the other one doesn't allow them to walk past and there's physical contact. You have a battery. Under the legal definition, you have a battery. And now you have a person that's willing to call the police and bring the police in, you have the elements of a domestic battery.
And something we've talked about in this show, and we'll talk about more obviously in this episode when we talk about victims rights with with Marcy's law. The state attorney's office is now hand tied because they have obligations under the Constitution. The victims have constitutional rights that the state attorney's office has to listen to and hear from. And when I was at the state attorney's office, Marcy's law was passed. And for those of you that don't know,
Marcy's law was created to protect victims and it's a law that allows victims to have a constitutional right to be part of the proceedings and the different stages of a criminal proceeding that they are the victim of. They are able to be involved. They are able to be present. They are supposed to be notified. Their position is supposed to be heard. That doesn't mean they're supposed to run the case. And oftentimes that's where the problem happens. Because they
take the Marcy's law protections to mean that what they want to have happen in a case happens. Yeah. When really the addictive nature overload. Yeah. And the purpose of it is really to give them a voice to have them be heard to know when you know, sentencing is for them to be able to speak at sentencing or whatever it is, but for them to dictate offers, for instance, like I've had, I think conversations with prosecutors where
It's been like, I have to be able to go to my supervisor and get this approved by them because the alleged victim is not, and that's our office policy is that we have to go by what the alleged victims. And like, for me, it's like, if the facts are showing otherwise, you know what I mean? Like the photos of the injury, like there's so many that their testimony is not the only thing in the case. Right. So sometimes it is. And that's different when it's he said versus she said. And then there's there, then there's a lack of evidence.
you know, argument for the defense if there are no injuries and no other witnesses or whatever it is. But. You know, when it comes to like being able to see that there are other pieces of evidence that kind of disprove what that person is saying and they're still not willing to do it, that's when it becomes a problem because it is a personal thing for them. It's it's it's not just and most of the yes, domestic violence can be between like a mom and a son or whatever. It can be.
between anybody that lives in the same household, oftentimes it is between couples. And oftentimes it arises out of like whatever situation or drama or issue is going on in their relationship. And that's why I saying, we really do get into their shit because we don't just talk about like the battery in the trial. We talk about what led up to that. Yeah. Like why are you- allegations of everything else, the arguing, the different problems that couples have that- Yeah.
is now put on display because it culminated in and it's and it's embarrassing on top of that for them. I'm sure and like not only that you're that's without kids involved imagine like with kids involved and then when kids are involved or present during the allegation or the alleged battery that person who's accused of the battery or the domestic violence they are not able to be around their children which and then also
We cannot ignore the fact that they basically become homeless, even if they have... that's a big thing. Huge. Yeah, that's a huge thing that I think people also don't know. When you have a criminal case and there is an alleged victim, oftentimes the courts will order no contact with that alleged victim. Yeah. That's very common at first appearances as part of a bond hearing.
that there will be no contact with an alleged victim. Well, what happens in a circumstance where that alleged victim lives in the same house as you? Which is domestic. definition of domestic. Yeah. You are not going home. Even if you pay for the bills. And you are under an obligation to continue paying for those bills. Yep. You are not allowed to go home. You are now in a position where you have to figure out a place to live pending this criminal case. Yeah. And
The is basically saying, yeah, I'm kicking you out of your home while this is pending. Whether these allegations are BS or not, you're not going home. That's a really, really scary part because somebody, again, if you have, and this happens a lot, you have people that are abusing the system and they know if I get this person in trouble and I get a no contact order,
That's it. They're out of the house. Yeah, they're not coming home that the house is mine. And I have had cases like that where the that was what was going on. It was an alleged victim that was just vindictive. And ultimately, the charges were dismissed against my client. But the the you know, there is so much damage. There's so much damage that can be done by someone being vindictive that knows a little bit about how the system works.
And that's what's scary. Yeah. then on and throwing kids into the mix and then the effect it has on the children is like, I don't, I think that so many people are operating from a place of like self like preservation or like trying to show that they're the victim or whatever story they want to put out there about themselves that they literally don't think about the damage they're causing on their shared child or their own children. Like, do you know what you're doing? Right.
And it really does mess them up. Like it's not okay. like sometimes even when they result in like, going back to what you were saying, because you were saying there are real victims, yes. But you know, the real victims don't make up most of these cases or the system. No, not at all. And it's, unfortunately, that's not who's dealing with it. Or they're in the more serious situations. The felony domestic cases sometimes have much, the victims are
Far more. I don't want to say legitimate, but there they have a much more obvious case where they are the victim in the more serious cases. I think it's clear when I get one when I get one where it's like, okay, I think we need to take a plea like you should not entertain this for trial, you know, but then other times domestics. I'm like, let's go to run it. Let's go. Of course. And I, I, in addition to representing defendants and in
criminal cases, do victims representation in these cases also. So I've represented victims in domestic cases that were very much victims of domestic abuse. And the reason that Marcy's law exists and the reason that these rules are in place and the reason that police do make the arrests are for situations like that. And they do, it does exist, but the concern is there's
people that abuse the system and they are able to do so successfully. Yeah. And the fact that I think that judges and prosecutors entertain these false claims that are very obviously false, it takes away from the reality of domestic violence because when we're practicing attorneys and 90 % of the domestic violence calls I get, like, okay, like most likely either this is going to be a trial or a stand your ground. I'm most likely either I'm, I'm very confident when I get a domestic violence case.
Obviously have to see the evidence that I could probably get it dismissed if they have no criminal history, you know? But if it's something that they like, there's evidence to show like they're, they're really bad injuries. Like sometimes the injuries are bad. And I'm like, listen, there needs to be some explanation as to what happened here. So tell me if there's a stand your ground or not, because that's going to be, it's either it didn't happen or you were defending yourself. Which one are we going to do? You know, but
It's it's it really does. It's insulting to real violent like domestic violence victims. So I think it's it's not fair at the end of the day. Yeah, they entertain that. like it's just it's it's really unfortunate to see the system flooded, flooded with so many false claims and like so many times it's like they're treated like they're true victims. And I'm like, I really do feel like obviously I've never had a prosecutor tell me like, I don't think they're a real victim. Like they would never say that.
But I'm like, do you really believe this shit happened? You know what I mean? Like, do you really believe that just because this person is saying that? You know, they have so many reasons to lie. And like, none of that comes into play. I think domestic violence prosecutors are generally afraid of the victim and of the judge. Yeah. I think...
Certainly younger ones, older ones that have a little bit more discretion or that file their own cases. Maybe it's a little bit different, but the younger prosecutors in domestic courtrooms are basically scared to do anything other than blanketly trust what a victim is saying and in front of the judge think that what that judge wants is just for them to be as harsh as possible and prosecute as hard as possible. And I see that.
oftentimes in the domestic courtroom. It's that, you know, and this is not a shot against domestic violence prosecutors or the domestic violence judge or anything else like that because again, they are responsible for sifting through these claims and I think when you see them getting taken advantage of, it's, you know.
unfortunate because there's just so many of these false claims out there that are you have prosecutors that are believing lies either believing lies or not willing to take take a step back and look at the helicopter you of the case and say does this really make sense yeah because what's gonna happen is we're gonna set it for trial right and then you're gonna have to realize that the hard way and after putting everybody through all of this but again
like you were saying previously, the judges don't always help. And especially when it comes to DV, think it that the fear, I think the reason why and I'm not they come from a place of if this is true, the repercussions are huge. Someone can die. Someone can eventually be killed if the person's really like. So that is the I think the place and I and I'm trying like I oftentimes try to give people the benefit of the doubt, try to think of where they're coming from. Although I might not agree, I still see
where they're coming from. I think that's where they're operating from, where it's like, okay, if this person is really, which has happened, you know, this person's released back into the community, which I mean, if it's a domestic battery and it's a misdemeanor, they're going to get out and like max they can only be held for a year. Right. So they're going to get out back into the community anyways. But I think that they're like, okay, how can we separate?
the two or the situation for as long as possible, like while we have it in our control, because if they, somebody looks into it and they're releasing something happens later, they're gonna come back and say, oh, it was this judge. that is why when people say, well, why do the police in Florida act the way they do with domestic? That is why. They are preventing the Gabby Petitos. They wanna prevent the most extreme case from happening under their watch. They wanna prevent, they don't wanna be the one that turns on the news and says,
I actually let I stopped them in a car and saw there was a sign of domestic abuse, but I let it go or we got a call about domestic abuse, but we reported and saw it was kind of like BS and let it go. Like, no, and I don't I do not blame law enforcement for the way they handle. I don't for a lot of the domestic cases. I don't because. If they get look if they get there and it is so clear that that.
the only allegation is like yelling or it was a neighbor calling in about some yelling like I've had that and that's that's bullshit. But if you have something where it's like you know the caller or or one of the parties is saying hey this person just punched me in the face this person did this like what you know their hands are tied. I really feel like there should be more training for police to be able to diffuse and detect like first of all they need to.
aside from all this, detect mental health issues because sometimes that comes into play. Yeah, of course. Which they don't do at all. They're just like, you're like you're acting crazy and they'll arrest you, know, close around crazy if you're listening, not watching. But that is one issue. Also, you know, being able to detect actual domestic violence victims and then having another remedy. Like maybe these people just need to be separated and not arrest anybody. You know what mean? Like maybe there's an avenue that we can make.
Not we as in us to someone in the legislature, but you know, that's how. I, yeah, I think about it as a, but you also have to think like the, officer that's on patrol that night that gets a call to go out to some apartment and says he gets there and he, he thinks, maybe it's on the fence. Okay. You guys just go your separate ways and he leaves and two hours later, the guy comes back and shoots and kills his wife. But also can say it's it's it's like,
Consider the allegations. Yes, I agree. But like if the allegations of push like really I'm sorry, but like really if I I understand and I mean, think it's it's a difficult I think You know as much as we don't I it's that's a difficult position to be in for for law enforcement I think more so than you know, I'm not
one that's going to sit and give credit and yeah at any every time for every perfect investigation, but I think the bottom line is when you're dealing with those types of situations domestic specifically, yeah, not just batteries but domestic specifically. You don't want to be the one now that I got the call that was. To let it could have went the other way. Yeah, right. And I think the judges are the judge in the domestic cases is like that.
that's probably their perspective as well. But they have a big onus of being able to smell the bullshit. Yeah, which is, I think, important when it comes in to play with like, your ground. Because they're the ones that make stand your ground for people who don't know is when you have a self-defense case and you file a motion to dismiss to get the case dismissed, and it's by clear and convincing evidence on the state to show, I think it's.
Now I'm getting blanking out. It's for the defense to show that it was self-defense. Correct. And then the state has to show that it wasn't. you know, I think filing the motion is good enough and there's case law to say that. It's good enough to shift the burden to the state to disprove that it's a self-defense case. it's that opportunity for judges, I think, when it comes to self-defense cases. Obviously, when it comes to it didn't happen, that's for the jury to decide.
But when it comes to self-defense cases, that's when the judge can really decide. And that's what like, like the example you gave with like somebody trying to leave the house at the door, you know, and somebody ends up touching the other person or pushing the other person, whatever it is that ends up, that could be a stay in your ground. You know I mean? Like I was trying to get out and they were, yeah, they were pushing me. was for sure. For sure. Whatever it is. But you know, that's when the judges really need to, I think, do what they need to do. I was.
in domestic violence while as a public defender. was in that division for during COVID actually. And that is a trial heavy division because it's a lot of he said, she said, and in County court specifically, and I trials were suspended. I ended up. I was like, you know what? Stand your ground. Let me go through my caseload. My caseload went up to 400 during COVID because I, couldn't close cases out. Like the ones that were trial cases were at a standstill.
Yes, everything was in a logjam. Yeah, clients were sitting in custody waiting to get out and bonds were being denied for the reason that we're explaining, you know, and they also sometimes don't have a place to go. have to usually have to show, hey, you know, they have another place to go. They're not going to go back to the house, whatever it is. Went through my caseload. I felt stand your grounds on every case that was like had a legitimate stand your ground argument, which was a lot for a PD caseload 400 cases. You know what I mean? That was a good amount.
And you know, the average caseload was not 400. It was like 120, which is still, it's a lot, but in County courts manageable, I think. but I got, listen, I don't think it was me. I got a good amount dismissed. Like 30 over the case, like probably like four months of all the, of domestic cases that you found the standard ground. And like, that was because the judge smelt the bullshit.
Yeah, or saw that it was on the line. It's not like you're you're when you think of domestic violence is person coming at me into being this abuser. Right. I mean, like when you show that and the judge does what they're supposed to do, it's like. So like, it's just it's like, I feel like that's like really like true justice, in my opinion, but I also think justice is relative and I don't think it's like people want to people. This is another conversation for another topic, but I think people want to talk about
justice as an objective thing, but I really do think it's a subjective thing because justice for a victim. Oh, resolving a case is the fundamental question that we get asked sometimes is how many cases have you won? What do you, you know, the answer is based on how you define what winning a case looks like. winning a case look like a dismissal outright? Does winning a case look like you're not going to jail?
What does winning a case look like? And that is a very subjective thing. think after doing and handling thousands and thousands of cases, I can say I have a pretty objective view of what a win looks like in a criminal case for either party. But ultimately, you're exactly right. It's a subjective. That's a completely subjective thing. Yeah. And justice for a victim is not the same as justice for a defendant.
You know, or one of our clients. So that's like, I really do think it's like, it's like in the eye of the person that is viewing it. So, yeah. When also like speaking of no contact orders, sometimes restraining orders come about from. Yeah. handle a lot of injunctions in Florida. We don't have restraining orders. We have injunctions, which is the same, same concept, but oftentimes the.
domestic violence injunctions go hand in hand with criminal cases. Yeah, and you know, that's always it always like comes into play when they're seeking an injured the alleged victim who is a petitioner and an injunction is seeking an injunction against the respondent who is the defendant in the case the criminal case and they are You know giving statements and that becomes evidence in the criminal case so like there's so many different ways that there's like overlap and then
that's another way that someone ends up homeless. Yeah. So it really does kind of just upend someone's life in just a moment. I think there's a double-edged sword to having the... think Marcy's law has a double-edged sword. And I think if it is used or
really, say, if it is abused by somebody that knows a little bit about the way that the system works, it can have a detrimental effect on somebody's life. And it can be effective. Because if you know that somebody's gonna get arrested if the police get called, if you know that a no contact order is gonna be put in place as long as you show up at court for the bond hearing and say, I'm afraid of this person, I don't want them to come home,
the judge is never gonna let them go home. Yeah. And that could be a year that a case is pending and this person is not allowed home. All for something that was a petty issue to begin with. That's where you see an abuse of that Marcy's law and you see, know, that's where you really hope that you have prosecutors and judges that are willing to say, okay, well, we understand that as a victim, as a genuine victim, you have these rights. Right. But you
Individual are not presenting as a credible witness. You are not your you seem to be using this to your advantage and using You know this shield if you will as a sword, yeah, it's like a weapon right there weaponizing the criminal justice system, correct and the Marcy's also gives protection in terms of their identity like they can stay basically I've never actually had to challenge this because every there's a confrontation clause where every
person who's accused of a crime has the right to confront their witness or their accuser. And when it comes to domestic violence, obviously I've had the police reports where it's like redacted with their names, but ultimately when I get the list, the witness list or whatever, have to give you the information. Right. And I've never had an instance where a prosecutor was like, I'm not giving you my
the victims information. Right, because ultimately as an officer of the court, it's supposed to get to the point where if you have that information, you're not doing anything nefarious with that or malicious with that information. So at some point, the keeping all of the victims information confidential and the right of confronting and cross examining the witnesses. I really think it comes from a I well, the reason why I think
not to give prosecutors any ideas, but I think the reason why is because Marcy's laws came out in 2018. confrontation clause has been around for decades. And it is kind of new though, like happened, I think in the sixties or something. I don't really remember actually. Don't quote me on that, but I know that it was a newer thing, but still Marcy's law is way newer 2018. And I think it just came like, it was a practice to turn over everything as required, but I, I
wonder how it would play out in the courtroom or in litigation if a prosecutor is like no, they want to remain confidential and they have the right to How would that play out for trial purposes? Because how are you going to balance the constitutional rights of the person who's accused and the balance and balance the now constitutional right of a victim in a case which to me when I so I I was like when I found out about marcelot, I was like how
Like it just to me it doesn't it doesn't make full sense like some some of it does where it's like, okay They have a right to be heard. They have a right to know about the proceedings all those things fine fair but the confidentiality part I'm like make that make sense because this person has Prosecutors have a Brady obliquely. They have to Brady obligation They have to turn like you have to turn everything over as a prosecutor. This is nothing you can not turn over
You know, whereas the defense, if I have a conversation with my client, my client sends me an email. Like that stuff is all private. Like prosecutor does not get access to that information. So how do you balance the rights of the person who's accused to be able to confront the person who's making allegations against them and then the rights of that person? Like there's, there's two people with constitutional rights in this, in this case. it's not person versus person. It's state of Florida.
or government versus person. Correct. So I think... that's a really good question. Yeah, I mean, I haven't seen it play out, thankfully. Not to give anybody ideas, but it is something that I've thought about. then it doesn't make sense. Why are you redacting police reports when I'm going to get a witness list in two seconds? But whatever. Well, we'll see about a week after this episode drops, we'll have that problem. we'll be dealing with it. God forbid. I'll be like, that's my Yeah, right. Yeah. that's my bad.
And then we'll come back for another episode of Come Back with a Warrant and we'll say, hey, to all the prosecutors listening. Yeah. I'll have to draft the reform bill for Marcy's law to allow for some transparency and safety for them to honor our confrontation clause rights as defense counsel and defendants in cases. Moving on to the next part of this
Episode is the plea deal trap and this kind of goes into what you were saying about Not every win looks the same in every case kind of correct is that what you're saying? Yeah Yeah, a win is a win is in the in the criminal law world a win is in the eye of the beholder Yeah, and it is in the you know
What is a win for one person is not necessarily a win for another. Yes. You will meet clients that expect a win to be a dismissal and that you will meet people that that is their only definition of a win is a dismissal. The truth is that a win is what we were able to mitigate and what we are able to get given the circumstances.
a win in a DUI could very well be a DUI conviction, but with no jail. Mitigate with, you know, less probation terms. Yeah. It's a question that I get all the time, you know, how many cases you win, how many cases you lose. It's you can't answer that question unless you're the one that's in the position. I have clients that are very happy as long as they're not going to jail. So even if that means a guilty plea,
They'll tell me, hey, I don't care about, you know, conviction, probation, anything like that. I just don't want to go to jail. Well, the win for them is just not going to jail. But that still could be a conviction. Yeah. I think it also comes into play. Like what evidence is there against them and if the state can prove it, how they can prove it. Right. And then, you know, their their history, sometimes that comes into play like their score sheet. You know, you're scoring. Score sheets.
In Florida are the sentencing guidelines in felony cases for people who don't know and it tells you the lowest permissible sentence in months that you can serve and sometimes just based off your history and the charges that you are being charged with, even if you are. NG all the way, you really have to consider the score sheet because if you go to trial and you lose. Obviously, the score sheet is not the only thing you have to consider the evidence and what the the state will present, but if you lose, the judge cannot go below.
that lowest permissible months in, in, in, that score sheet or your minimum mandatory associated with whatever charges you have. If you're, you know, if you have a minimum mandatory associated with your charges. there's so many different aspects to think about. And when you are evaluating a case, sometimes I'm telling my clients that this is a win. Like I have to tell them, like, this is a win. Like, I'm sorry, you're in your best interest. It's a win. Yeah. Like you, you're not.
It's not the best outcome in your mind because you wanted to get a not guilty or get it dismissed. But this outcome is a good outcome considering all of these circumstances, unless you want to take the risk and we do it. And that's their decision. And I'm always down to do it. You know what I mean? But at end of the day, I'm always going to give my recommendation. Like, I don't know if this is good idea or I think this is a good idea. So there's so many different aspects, especially considering.
The maximum sentencing and the minimum sentencing usually yes, the maximum sentencing comes into a part of the conversation But it doesn't really control the conversation I think more so like the score sheet in felony cases at least score sheet Who your judge is obviously there's there are ways to depart from the score sheet downward departure is away But there are certain ways to depart you can't depart for any reason and at the end of the day the judge is the one who's deciding that so that comes into play as well like
does this judge usually do this? Will this judge do this? Does this judge sometimes, you you really like study patterns of people and judges to know what's expecting in that case, like what's to come in that case. So to know what a win looks like in that courtroom. Yeah. Know the judge, know what the judge is going to do, what they're, you know, what they're likely to do on a case. I, I had a case where a client of mine scored
41 years in prison. Yeah, and he was looking at if you stacked all of the charges against each other. It like five life sentences. Yeah. And if the judge were to sentence him just by him pleading guilty, she had to start at 41 years. I was able to negotiate a plea deal for him for 20 years. That's 20 years, you know, day for day that he's going to prison. But when you look at
20 years versus 41 years or versus a five life sentence. It's a win and it's a no brainer, but to the outside perspective, a win at 20 years like that's it's insane. Yeah, but that's the truth and that's you know where it comes down to well as far as I'm concerned that was a it was a huge achievement to get to get the offer down that low.
And my client, you know, who did accept the offer and is serving the 20 years, really believed that that was a win. And that is because that is a win. It was a win. was that the cases were indefensible. was a win. And that's, you know, every single case is different. And your plea deals that you fall into or this plea deal, you know, trap that we were talking about.
It's not necessarily a loss just because you're walking out of it with a plea. 90 % of criminal cases, something, I think it's more than 90 % of criminal cases result in plea deals. That's not because criminal defense attorneys are out there and they're just resolving all their cases or they're quote unquote plea lawyers and they just are pleading out all their cases. It's genuinely in the best interest of the client to resolve the case out.
Especially is a win for that client especially because the prosecutors are the only ones in the courtroom that have the power and discretion to be able to depart from the score sheet or the guidelines of As much as they want, know, technically if they obviously within reason because they're doing their job but if there's a victim associated with it and then that becomes into play as well with Marcy's on not just with domestic violence, but it is something that is
to consider like that is something I always tell my clients, you know, the judge can't do that. Sorry. The judge cannot do that. It's the prosecutor. And if you want to get this result, we're to have to show this prosecutor that you like should get this result. oftentimes mitigation binders, whatever it is, like whatever we need to gather to show them that you should get this result and they should depart from the score sheet. And usually I don't want to say usually sometimes oftentimes.
The offer is different from this, this like less than the score. Um, but it's a matter of what, know, in your situation, 40 years, if you're, depends how old you are too. Like if you're, if you're 66 years old and you score 41 years, that's life. was 26. Exactly. So then 26, 20 year old, he'll get out. He'll be older. It sucks, but he's going get to see his kids. He's going to get to, he's going to get to, uh, live again.
out of custody. Yeah. And oftentimes these are the realities of our conversations with our clients. Like we have to, we actually have to break it down to them like this sometimes. it's a tough conversation. Yeah. Yeah. It's a really hard conversation to try to explain why that's the best scenario. Yeah. But that's part of the gig and that's part of, you know, what we do. Yeah. And, know, you also have to think about like what could happen at trial as like, as a result versus what's in front of you. Sure.
And you we can never guarantee any outcome just like I always tell my clients even though I'm confident I'm telling you I'm confident that doesn't mean that this is what's gonna happen I've been so I've been confident so many times and at the end of the day It's not it hasn't been the result that I was confident in you know what I mean, so That's to say that you need to I'm I'm not the only player here You know, there's so many different aspects and moving parts to this case
that we need to consider and you have to take that into consideration when you're making a decision as big as this. So I think that when people think about pleas or convictions or whatever it is, oftentimes people who are innocent do plead guilty to things and do take pleas that they don't necessarily want to or desire for, but they do it because it is in their best interest. Yeah. So, and that's just an
reality of what we do and oftentimes it's humanizing our client for the purpose of getting the best plea possible. And that's what my my the way I approach every case is I am like, I'm going to go gung ho prepare for trial at the same time, prepare mitigation amazing, the best mitigation binder I can or packet whatever, send it to the state government and see what the best offer I can get show my client. OK, this is the evidence against you. You can go to trial.
this is the best plea offer I can get you. Make your decision based off of this is what's in front of you, can take it. This is the max if you go to trial. This is the best case scenario if you go to trial. What do you want to do? You know? And that's really how I approach every single case. them the options. You're just giving them the best possible options given the scenario. Yeah. I just, I do, do that because sometimes when you prepare and the reason why I prepare for trial from the beginning,
is because sometimes the faulty parts of the case when you're preparing for trial, whether it's for depots or whatever it is that you're doing, you can oftentimes show the state. Sometimes it shows that your case is shit and you should definitely not go to trial, which is still kind of a win, I guess, if you think about it, because you're confirming this is not going to go well for your client. But then sometimes you can show like, this witness isn't reliable. You're really going to believe this witness that backtracked in their words or like.
they recanted or whatever. Obviously that doesn't always get rid of the case completely, but it does help the case. You know, I think it does. I think the prosecutors will usually consider that be like, okay, well, I guess unless there's some sort of reason they think of that's like, oh, they recanted for this reason, whatever. But I think that, you know, usually preparing for trial can get you can help you in the other department too. So all that to say plea deals.
are very much so something that we have to do as a part of our job and consider when it comes to functioning as defense attorneys. You know, sometimes it sucks. Like when my client took the plea for the misdemeanor and I was like, let's just try this case again. Why are you taking this plea? For the, for the felony, it's a lot better guaranteed outcome than potentially losing a trial on a felony. Yeah.
And that comes down to our clients feeling pressure, understanding that somebody did believe the alleged victim, whatever the case is. But yeah, I think that's all we have. I think that is everything for today's episode of Come Back with a Warrant. Thank you very much for being back with me. Yes, thank you. make sure you follow, like, subscribe on all channels on YouTube, Instagram and TikTok. We are on all platforms. Join us for next time. And if you don't like that, come back with a warrant.