Come Back With a Warrant
Episode 7: Crossing Lines: Scandal, Consent, and the Classroom
Hosted by Brandon Dinetz and Monica Ishak
Intro
Brandon: Welcome back to Come Back With a Warrant podcast. I'm Brandon Dinetz.
Monica: And I'm Monica Ishak.
Monica: Before we kick-start this week's episode, this is your reminder that this podcast is not legal advice. It's real, unfiltered, and for entertainment purposes only. If you need to speak with a lawyer, call one. Or better yet, call us.
Brandon: Call us.
Episode
Monica: Welcome to Come Back With a Warrant. I'm Monica Ishak.
Brandon: And I'm Brandon Dinetz.
Monica: And today we will be talking about teacher-student relationships.
Brandon: The inappropriate kind.
Monica: When does it cross the line?
Brandon: To being inappropriate?
Monica: Yes.
Brandon: Okay.
Monica: So I start off, and I'm already kind of smirking at this — because this is, like, one of those subjects that's very controversial.
Brandon: Very.
Monica: And really, every case is different.
Brandon: Yeah.
Monica: Okay? And I think the way that the public looks at every case is different.
Brandon: And you have real concerns here, because there is the potential for a young person to be exploited and taken advantage of sexually, and there is nothing, nothing okay with that. That shouldn't be happening anywhere, anytime, in any given scenario where there's no ability to give consent. Like, that's just wrong entirely. But the question — and the cases that come up, certainly the ones that get sensationalized in the news — are the stories where you have young teachers and older students.
Monica: Mm-hmm.
Brandon: And questions get raised that ultimately end in: does this person deserve to be a registered sex offender for the rest of their life?
Monica: Yeah.
Brandon: And that is something that really destroys someone's life.
Monica: Correct.
Brandon: So, and there, the law doesn't have any sort of middle ground.
Monica: It actually takes it more seriously, because the teacher is somebody that has power and authority over this person. And because of that, they take it seriously that this could be potentially someone that abused their power, and the student was not able to give consent. And unfortunately, Florida's law is, like, strict liability. They don't care if you're 17 and about to turn 18 tomorrow — you're not considered able to give consent based on your age.
Brandon: Right, and the thing that people are looking at — and you just hinted at it — in addition to this being a rape case, this is also people taking advantage of positions of authority.
Monica: Yeah.
Brandon: And that is one of the big things that prosecutors often focus on when they have these types of cases: that a teacher violated that duty and that position of authority over a student by engaging in a sexual relationship with that student. And then these people are charged with — it really depends on the state, but they could be charged with different types of sexual assault. They can be charged with sexual battery. They can be charged really with all different sorts of statutory rape-related charges that make this a crime. And another thing that you touched upon: there are certain states that make it so that even if the student is 18, the relationship is still illegal, still problematic, and still could put the teacher in a position where they are criminally charged.
Monica: Just because of the nature of their relationship.
Brandon: Correct.
Monica: Just because they're enrolled in that school.
Brandon: Right. And that is even scarier, I think, than Florida's law — because at that point, there are so many high school students that are 18, 19, maybe even a little bit older, and their teachers are what, 25, 26, 27, 28?
Monica: I mean, I think teachers are younger. You can have teachers even younger, because it's a four-year education, right? To become a teacher, to my knowledge.
Brandon: Yeah.
Monica: There's not additional —
Brandon: No.
Monica: — schooling that you have to go to.
Brandon: Yeah. So how old are you getting out of college — 21, 22, 23? And then you're off to teach. You can very quickly be someone that's in their early 20s, in charge of a classroom of people that are almost 20 years old, or 16, 17, 18-year-olds. That's very close in age, if you were not in the classroom.
Monica: It's also important to note that the students now — or I should say, like, the generation in which kids are 16, 17, 18 years old — they, one, don't look their age. Like, this generation definitely looks older than their age. So I think that creates this idea, I guess, in their head that they're older than what they are — or more mature than what they are. Because then some — you're 17, you're getting, like, lip filler.
Brandon: Well, everything is different because of phones and social media.
Monica: Yeah.
Brandon: The reason that everybody looks differently, and the reason that they are perceived differently and act differently, is because they have access to phones and to social media. They're seeing the same content that adults are seeing. Just because they're in high school doesn't mean they're getting only high-school-appropriate content.
Monica: Yeah.
Brandon: So they are changing the way they look to look like their favorite celebrities — who are adults — and that is grabbing the attention of actual adults, it would appear.
Monica: Well, they're also privy — because of social media, they're privy to more information. Like, they're advanced compared to what previous generations were, I think. And they are put onto a lot of things that other generations in the past have not known or been exposed to at that age. So a lot of them become sexually active at a much younger age than previous generations were. And now they're doing, like, sex ed at a younger age. There's so many new things that are being implemented to kind of cater to this new generation of people who have access to technology and social media, because they're being exposed to so many things. We need to teach them how to be protected, or how to have safe sex and all these things. So when it comes to their interaction with their teacher and their age gap — and maybe the rapport they end up having because they're closer in age — that builds into something. And a lot of times they exchange numbers with their students, and it starts off with something that may be school related.
Brandon: Right.
Monica: And then things snowball.
Brandon: And this isn't — I mean, we can blame social media and cell phones to an extent. But this has been going on for a long time.
Monica: Yeah.
Brandon: There was a famous case when we were kids of a teacher who was — I remember she was on trial and she was, like, pregnant with a student's kid. This is something that's been around for a long time, and this has been an issue. But now it is certainly more of an issue.
Monica: So common.
Brandon: And it comes up all the time. I mean, Barstool Sports has a section — "The Newest Teacher Scandal" — where whenever one of these teachers comes out, they give a grade to everything from how good-looking the teacher is to how terrible their judgment was for what they did with a student.
Monica: Yeah.
Brandon: I mean, you talk about how these people all get caught and get in trouble. It's ultimately the female teachers getting caught because some kid is either bragging to another kid, or they wind up getting themselves into a position where their parents find out, and the parents are the ones that call it in.
Monica: Yes.
Brandon: The moms are not thinking it's cool that you're hooking up with your teacher. They are seeing that it's a crime and reporting it.
Monica: And that's what happens.
Brandon: Yeah. And oftentimes I can definitely understand where the parent would be coming from — where they feel like there may be an abuse of authority or whatever.
Monica: Or that a predator is sexually going after their kid.
Brandon: Yeah.
Monica: But unfortunately, consent is not a defense in the state of Florida.
Brandon: Correct, not in this situation.
Monica: Because they have it so that if you're under a certain age, you are not in a position to be able to even give consent — even if you are technically consenting and you're engaging willfully. No one's forcing you, you know? And that's where it kind of becomes a problem — because, like you said, you started it off by saying you get this label for the rest of your life.
Brandon: Right.
Monica: And that's where it's: what do we do? How do you look at these things in a case-by-case situation?
Brandon: Because let's give an example where you have a teacher that's 23 years old and a student that's 17 turning 18 — a 23-year-old female teacher and a 17-to-18-year-old male student. And they are having a sexual relationship, and it comes out, and the teacher is then charged. Should that teacher carry a sex offender label the rest of their life? That's a question you could put out to our audience, and I think most people out there would probably say, "No, they shouldn't be forced to carry that label." Okay, change the scenario a little bit. Make the student a female student, and make it a male teacher — let's say a 25-year-old male teacher and a 16-year-old female student. Should that person carry the sex offender label? Are they any more responsible than the female teacher, or more likely to have that label put on them than the female teacher? Do we have to look at it case by case and say, "Well, yeah, what he's doing is wrong and what she's doing is wrong, but less wrong, so she shouldn't get the label"? Maybe that is what we should be doing.
Monica: Mm-hmm.
Brandon: But the law is black and white with the issue. And it is black and white with what's the age of the quote-unquote alleged victim, and what is the age of the perpetrator — or in this situation, the teacher that's in that position of authority.
Monica: Yeah. And I've seen different scenarios play out where there was a relationship between a 17-year-old and a 19-year-old — and it wasn't a teacher-student relationship, but it could be applied in that scenario — where the parent knows about it and they don't like it, so they're the ones that report it. And their kid is protected because they're the one that's considered the alleged victim, but the person who's older is not. And so that's kind of what you were saying — when the parent finds out and they report it. Or in this scenario with the younger girl and the older teacher, they could get upset because they're actually in a relationship. They could get upset about something that the teacher did —
Brandon: Right.
Monica: — and then go and tell on them, or report them, based off of being upset about what's going on in their relationship. Like what happens in domestic cases, where people kind of just weaponize the system. But this is something that has long-lasting consequences on people's lives. Affects where you can live, affects everything. You have to register your license. Every single thing must be known once you get that label. So it really is something that I think we should take in terms of looking at all the circumstances — because like you're saying, it's so black and white, but there are so many areas of the law that are not black and white. In fact, most of the legal things that we do in court are not black and white. That's why we're here, you know?
Brandon: A lot of things are in the totality of the circumstances, or what a reasonable expectation, or what the reasonable person would do. And we look at the totality of the circumstances to make that determination, and we have factors. And I think those are things that are so important, especially when it comes to age — whatever age, let's say 15 to 18, or 17. Whatever it is, look at the circumstances: who it is, the teacher, how old they are, what their relationship was actually like. Actually investigate that stuff before having to put that on someone.
Monica: But then the second a teacher is accused of that, the media — they like grasp onto that.
Brandon: Yeah, it's a hot story. That's a story that has garnered — garnished? Garnered? — garnered media attention forever. The idea that a teacher is having a relationship with a student is something that the public likes to read about —
Monica: Yeah.
Brandon: — and it sells stories. It sells newspapers.
Monica: Mm-hmm.
Brandon: It sells the ad space. That story always makes it to the news. And the facts of each story, I think we're both saying, matter. It really makes a difference. Because I think maybe the examples I gave before weren't the best. What my example really is: if you start off with the first example being a 23-year-old female teacher and a 17-year-old male, and then you go to a 25-year-old female teacher and a 15-year-old male — well, now there is a difference.
Monica: Mm-hmm.
Brandon: And now we are already saying there's something wrong with this inherently. Just by me changing the ages, we're all feeling that there's a difference, and we're feeling that there's something wrong with it. And maybe that's where the role of the prosecutor and the role of the judge at sentencing comes into play. These things should all be factored in before you give somebody that type of label for the rest of their life.
Monica: Fortunately, yes. But that's something for the legislature.
Brandon: Right.
Monica: That's not for —
Brandon: Unfortunately.
Monica: I'm like, how can we do this? But there are things —
Brandon: But also, who wants to be the face of that legislation?
Monica: Yeah.
Brandon: Who is the face of the legislation that says there should be some sort of sliding scale of age difference for cases? That's ridiculous. You don't want to be the face of that legislation.
Monica: No. But the conversation should be had.
Brandon: 100%. Whether or not it's right to apply the sentence evenly to everybody in these settings, in this scenario. What do you do? Or do you just say, "No, everybody is treated the same"? If you're a teacher, you don't sleep with a student, period. That's it. There's no — you're just as guilty as somebody that is of an age we as a society are less likely to say is okay.
Monica: I think there can definitely be a middle ground where it's considered a crime, but not a crime where you're followed for the rest of your life with this label. And I think that is supported by — if we're gonna enhance a 12-and-under offense to a capital, you're facing life, you know? Then we should consider the other ages and see where we can create the range of ages where it's going to be something that could be considered a crime — if that's something that would appease the legislature — and not have to impose the sex offender label on the teacher. That's the beginning of your teaching career. You've been out of high school for like no time at all, and you're back in the high school environment, and —
Brandon: Yeah.
Monica: — you look like you're the same age as everybody else.
Brandon: That's just something that — that's why it's so common.
Monica: Yeah. It happens.
Brandon: Yeah, yeah.
Monica: So there is also something called the Romeo and Juliet law, and Florida allows certain offenders to petition for removal from the sex offender registry if the sexual relationship was consensual, if the victim was 14 to 17, and the offender was no more than four years older, and the relationship wasn't coerced. But this doesn't apply to teacher-student relationships.
Brandon: Oh, wow.
Monica: So Florida's law specifically cuts out teacher-student because of their position of authority. So that's something that I think the legislature takes honestly more seriously, because they created this exception for people who are within a few years — they could be literally the same exact scenario, same age. The only difference is that this is not a teacher-student relationship, and they're able to get off the registry. So that's kind of scary. It shows how serious they take that relationship. But I think they should be given more grace, because — just like you said — they're put back into the same environment that they were just left —
Brandon: Right.
Monica: — a few years prior. I think that can be looked at both ways, but I think more so in a mitigating way. Have that sexual offender label attached to it — and you can still do what you need to do with that charge and charge the crime —
Brandon: Right.
Monica: — and prosecute somebody for it without doing that. But that's for the legislature to decide. And as of now, they've decided clearly that if it's a teacher-student relationship, then it doesn't matter.
Brandon: There's no avenue to even get off the registry if you're a teacher?
Monica: No. Unfortunately. But there's also a role that technology plays here — text messages are often turned over from the student's phone. They could prove that this is actually a consensual relationship, in the sense that it was willful — but it doesn't matter at the end of the day, because it just confirms that the relationship existed, really. It doesn't mitigate anything else. It doesn't help you or your case anymore.
Brandon: Plus the age of consent. It doesn't matter what the text messages were, or what the student's position was. The law says before a certain age, you cannot consent.
Monica: Exactly. It doesn't matter.
Brandon: Yeah.
Monica: So really, the best way to challenge these types of cases — if there isn't any of that — would be, if there is an allegation, obviously scientific investigations in terms of doing all the kits and all the swabs and whatever they need to do to prove that there was a sexual battery that occurred. But a lot of this, oftentimes, I think has more technological evidence to back up the allegation — which is like texts and social media or whatever.
Brandon: Sure.
Monica: And that's also another thing — teachers having their students on social media, you know? That just seems like a way to get in trouble — if you're a teacher, having your students on your social media, or —
Brandon: Well, I remember when —
Monica: — having their cell phone numbers. I think that's likely gonna lead to trouble.
Brandon: I mean, the cell phone numbers maybe not so much, because you can think of things like tutoring or other legitimate reasons. If you're in a club and that person's the club organizer and you need to reach out to them to get into the school — I mean, there's legitimate reasons why you would have somebody's cell phone number, so I can understand that. But the social media — there's not —
Monica: It's a little weird.
Brandon: It's weird. Yeah. There's no reason that —
Monica: I agree.
Brandon: — that your students should be your friends on social media.
Monica: Yeah. And I remember when I was in high school, like, we had cool teachers —
Brandon: Mm-hmm.
Monica: — and even the female teachers with the female students would not even engage on social, because they were like, "Do not add me on social." Or if they were added on social, they would not accept, because they didn't even want even the look of impropriety. They were like, "Please, we need some sort of space" — because the young teacher's the cool teacher.
Brandon: Right.
Monica: You know? Like, everybody — it's not like this person's imposing themselves. They're welcome. The older students usually connect better with the younger teachers, because they're closer in age. The teacher seems cool, you know, whatever it is. So there's always this other level to it, where you have to, as a teacher, be very careful and mindful of the extra things that you're doing — in case there's ever an allegation that you did something to a student or whatever.
Brandon: Right.
Wrap-Up
Monica: So obviously, every state is different, and this conversation is primarily based off Florida law, because that's what we practice. I don't know if we have anything else.
Brandon: Yeah, I think this is really a topic — if people have feedback, we would love to hear it. Because this is one of those things — a topic that whenever it's in the media, people gravitate to it —
Monica: Mm-hmm.
Brandon: — and they want to learn about the story, and they want to understand. I mean, there was even an Adam Sandler movie where the whole point of the story was that he slept with a teacher, and then was meeting his long-lost son years later at the son's wedding or something. I don't remember the name, but this is a topic that comes up often. And something that doesn't come up often is what we've really discussed here — whether or not there should be a greater understanding of the circumstances when it comes to punishment than there is currently. And if so, what does that kind of look like?
Monica: I think a lot of people, they view the scenario from the perspective of: this is so inappropriate, instead of actually understanding what could have led to this scenario, or what happened. Oftentimes — like what you're saying with the Adam Sandler movie — I haven't seen it, but I'm assuming it was showing that he was a big shot, he was the cool kid, and —
Brandon: He's a cool kid that slept with the teacher.
Monica: — because he slept with this teacher.
Brandon: Right. Exactly.
Monica: So it's like the cool thing —
Brandon: Right.
Monica: — and that's how it was showing it off.
Brandon: Right.
Monica: But then the other side of it is — like, the teacher's disgusting if you look at it from outside the movie. It's like, "How could this person — they're a predator and all these things."
Brandon: Right.
Monica: And it's like, it's a double standard, you know what I mean? In certain cases.
Brandon: Yes.
Monica: Not every time. In certain cases, there is this double standard.
Brandon: Yeah.
Monica: Yeah. So it definitely is something that we would be willing to maybe talk about further if people want to leave comments or questions. We're gonna be having an opportunity for that, and we'll put it in the show notes for people to submit any questions they wanna discuss on future episodes.
Brandon: That'll be cool.
Monica: Yep.
Brandon: And that's all we have.
Monica: That's all we have for today. So check the show notes. We have ComeBackWithaWarrant.pod on all platforms. Like, comment, subscribe, and give us a five-star review. And if you don't like listening to us —
Brandon: Come back with a warrant.