Come Back With a Warrant
Episode 27: Panic, Pressure, and Plea Deals: When Innocent People Look Guilty
Hosted by Brandon Dinetz and Monica Ishak
Intro
Brandon: Welcome back to Come Back With a Warrant podcast. I'm Brandon Dinetz.
Monica: And I'm Monica Ishak.
Monica: Before we kick-start this week's episode, this is your reminder that this podcast is not legal advice. It's real, unfiltered, and for entertainment purposes only. If you need to speak with a lawyer, call one. Or better yet, call us.
Brandon: Call us.
Episode
Monica: Welcome back. We are talking about why innocent people run from the police, why innocent people confess, why innocent people plead guilty, and kind of just educating you on why it is that people who have not necessarily done anything wrong are in the system. And so, this is something that comes up very frequently, and oftentimes, I recognize that this becomes an issue because of people's perception when I tell people that I practice criminal defense. And they're like, "Ew." They give me, like, this icky look or feeling or vibe. And I'm like, "Listen, you clearly are very, like, you have this very misunderstood view of the system." And I think a lot of people, even if you're a prosecutor, defense attorney, anybody that's — probation, like, anybody that's involved in the system can admit that it's not just guilty people that get caught up in the system. And so, when you see that certain people have criminal history or they have some sort of encounter with the system, it's important to kind of know the underlying issues or why it came about because so many things lead, like, things escalate, right? Like, things escalate because of bad decisions and people's wiring in their brains, people's experience, their emotional history. Like, there's so much that goes into things and people don't know that. They just see, you know, background check and you have a criminal conviction, they're like, "Oh my God, you're a criminal." You know? So, there's just so much to talk about here and I think that it really is more of a, like, psychological kind of episode where you're really seeing why people act the way they do and the behavior of humans in general.
Brandon: Yeah, I think that one of the things, especially prosecutors love to do is talk about consciousness of guilt, meaning that it's very clear that this person is guilty and they showed that they are guilty through the way that they were thinking. And one of the examples that they often go to is the person took off running. They ran from the police because they knew they were guilty or they knew that they had done something wrong. That's not always the case. There are people that are brought up that are afraid of the police in general and if they see police or are gonna have an encounter with police, their first reaction is flight. And it is not to stay and it is not to see what the situation is and it is not to have potentially a friendly or neutral encounter with law enforcement. Their concern is, "I have, from what I know, from what my history is, from what my culture is, from what I know from the past, from what I know from the news, the police are going to potentially hurt me or they're not coming to me because I'm the one that needs help. I take off and run." And that's exactly what we see. There are a lot of people that are completely innocent and choose to take off running for a various number of reasons that aren't necessarily because they did whatever they're being accused of.
Monica: The classic example that's coming to my mind and, like, what you're talking about is, it happens so frequently and the scenario that it happens in all the time, fleeing cases for DUS.
Brandon: Mm-hmm.
Monica: And, like, what I mean by this is somebody is driving under a suspended license, which is a misdemeanor, okay? Not to say it's — whatever. Let's not talk about why that is or is not a crime. Someone is driving without a valid license and they're getting pulled over for a traffic infraction and this person is like, "Fuck. I have a license that's suspended. I cannot be stopped by the police." And they drive off. Sir, you just committed a felony and they're gonna get your ass.
Brandon: Right.
Monica: So, by trying to evade a ticket and/or going, potentially just going to court and getting a notice to appear for your driving under suspended license arrest, quote-unquote arrest, because you might not get arrested, you might just get a ticket, you just caught a felony. And now you're talking about years of your life versus days. And you know, I'm not trying to dismiss panicking over a DUS because I understand that's, maybe you've never been in trouble before. But, like, again, this is a scenario, like, so many times I saw this at the Public Defender's Office and it was just like, people are just not educated and they don't know and they just do the first thing that comes to their mind and they're in fight or flight mode. And when that kicks in, they're outta there. Like, they're running, you know? And, or ditching the car, getting out and running. Like, I've seen that too so many times, and then you catch a resisting officer without violence charge. So there's just so many different ways you can, like, escalate the situation just because you're trying to, like, help yourself or do what you think is best in that situation, then you end up screwing yourself over.
Brandon: Right, and you're making it a lot worse than what it really is, especially if it's just something like a traffic ticket. But people don't know, you know? People out there that are not experienced in the legal world and the only thing they see is, you know, examples in their neighborhood where the police are accused of being brutal or, you know, arresting people that shouldn't be arrested and you come from a background where that's your concern, your concern is that you're gonna be the next person that's brutalized by the police, taking off and running is sometimes the first choice for those people because that's the better option than potentially being shot by the police or being, you know, harassed by the police. And a lot of times people may just think, you know, whatever that interaction is about to be with the police is not gonna go their way and their better option is to get away from it when in reality, it could've been something insignificant. It could be even less than just a driving under suspension. Like, it could've just been a traffic-based offense.
Monica: Yeah.
Brandon: Something really minor.
Monica: Yeah.
Brandon: And the officer stopping them to tell them that this is going on and they take off running and it's like, oh, well now we have something way worse, and the police are thinking, "Oh, this must be —"
Monica: Yes.
Brandon: — much bigger. This must be much worse. They must have kilos of drugs in the car or —
Monica: A kidnap victim or something.
Brandon: Like, they're taking off running and it was just something minor. You have now the mindset of the police is going haywire —
Monica: Yeah.
Brandon: — and you have this other person that — they've taken off running because they think that's their safest and best option. Little do they know, the technology that is ready to catch them, the helicopters, the camera systems on the different vehicles or the traffic camera systems. Like, there are ways that these people are gonna get caught.
Monica: Yeah.
Brandon: You know, sometimes you're scared or your body floods with adrenaline, and that's what happens.
Monica: Yeah. And speaking on, like, communities that, like, see trauma, because this is a real thing and this is something that I did see a lot of at the PD's office, is that, like, secondhand trauma's real. And seeing people encounter the police, maybe you didn't personally — like, people who grew up in certain communities don't personally encounter the police, but they've seen how police police their community, or individuals in their community have not great outcomes or encounters with the police. And so, they internalize that, and you don't know what age that person internalized that and saw that at. Maybe they were a child and they saw, you know, whatever, a shooting, you know. Whatever traumatic event happened in front of them, and how that is perceived in that 5-year-old's mind does affect how they go about the rest of their life towards police or towards authority. And I think that's something that is heavily overlooked in the system, and it's because the system doesn't really care about that. Like, they care about what you did. And it's like, if you did this and, like, maybe you have a psychological or justified reason in your mind, but that wasn't the reality of the situation, at the end of the day, it's not going to be sympathetic to your situation. And that is why a lot of people who did not necessarily commit, like, whatever the police are thinking they had in their car, you know, whether it's, like, kilos of drugs, like you're saying, in their car, which is so true. Like, in their head now, it's escalated. "Why is this person running?" You know, "Why is this person getting out of the car?" Why, like, "Why is this person acting crazy or nervous?" Or, you know, whatever it is. And in that person's mind, their, like, limited view of the system and police, they think that this is going to not work in their favor if they do comply or if they do speak to the police, which I'm not saying it will, but, you know, like, fleeing when you have a DUS, obviously that's going to — you're biting yourself and you're shooting yourself in the foot. But I just think that that's something that, like, at the end of the day, my point is that it doesn't really matter how you perceive the situation if it's not a legal justification, at the end of the day. So, it's unfortunate, but it's reality, and that's another reason why an innocent person might just wanna tell the police what they wanna hear in that moment and confess to something, which happens all the time.
Brandon: And the example that we initially gave of driving under suspension, like, the person knows they have a suspended license. We know that that's an offense. We know that there's, at minimum, a traffic ticket, at maximum, a criminal charge from that. We know that that exists. But take people into account that have issues that they don't know are issues that are gonna get them pulled over. Whether they have something from out of state that they didn't know about.
Monica: Mm-hmm.
Brandon: Maybe whether they had an old traffic infraction that somehow turned into a warrant —
Monica: Into a warrant. Mm-hmm.
Brandon: — whether they have child support that they may or may not be on, you know, on top of, and if they're not on top of it and that causes a suspended license. A person who may have thought they were doing absolutely nothing wrong now finds themself in a position where they're in trouble.
Monica: Yeah.
Brandon: And they didn't know that they had that issue. And another issue is clerical errors, whether if the wrong person gets a warrant or the wrong person gets pulled over or information is wrong on a ticket. This happens all the time. People get pulled over, they give a false ID or they give false information, and there's a ticket that's generated, and the ticket is belonging to somebody else. That person that never knew about the ticket could now wind up getting a warrant for failing to show up to court, and now they get pulled over, and they were never in a position where they were gonna get in trouble. They didn't do anything wrong. But because of a clerical error or because somebody lied and put their information, now they're subject, and they never would have known that they had done anything wrong. They're a completely innocent person, and now they're looped up in the criminal system. They're getting arrested. They have a record. It can happen to somebody that didn't do anything.
Monica: Yeah.
Brandon: It is possible. And in scenarios like that, you know, you go to first appearance the next day and you're supposed to get your bond set and all those things, but the state will make an offer and say, "You know, if you plead guilty, you'll get out today." And that's the thing. So how does an innocent person wind up pleading guilty? Let's take a person that can't afford to bond out of custody and they are sitting in jail on this charge that can be complete bullshit. They wanna get out. They'll do anything to get out. "Yeah, I'll admit that I did something I didn't do so that I can get out of custody." Well, that creates another huge problem because now they have a criminal record. Now they have —
Monica: Fines.
Brandon: — court costs. Now they have all these other things that are gonna tie them to the court system, and potentially they have a case that they can't get removed from their record at the end by a seal or an expungement. And if you can't do that, now you have a permanent criminal record off of something that could have been fought potentially, or something that was bullshit or unjustified to begin with.
Monica: Yeah. And fighting takes time, energy, and resources, and people are like, "I just wanna get this over with." Like, "Let me just get out of this situation." And, you know, this is something that happens every single day. This is not something that's a fluke that happens. No, this happens every day, and it's something that even people — like, my clients have to weigh, "Is this in my best interest, financially and, you know, and just life?" Like, "Does it make sense to do this, to go this route or this route?" And, like, they have to make a decision, and sometimes it's not about guilt or not. Other times it's about their best interest and what weighing resources, weighing how their life is gonna go, weighing the risk if they wanna fight the charges, things like that. So that is a big reason. And sometimes people don't feel comfortable saying, you know, "I'm guilty," and we have to ask the judge, you know, "Will you do a best interest plea?" Which is the same effect as a guilty plea, but some people just don't even wanna say that in court. And I understand why, you know? I get it. So, that's something that I think a lot of people don't know and it drives me crazy, and I think that's why I started with saying, like, I get this icky look when people say — when I tell people I'm a criminal defense attorney, because they just have this idea of the people that I represent, which I'm not saying all of them are innocent, but sometimes they are.
Brandon: Right. And you see that happen in domestic violence cases. A lot. And you see that happen in certain batteries or certain —
Monica: Mm-hmm.
Brandon: — you know, cases like that, where there's somebody that was arrested and they may have been arrested because the police just got called to that house and that was the reason that they're in custody, and now they have an open case, they have an open record. And that may never have even been the intention of the alleged victim in the case for that to happen.
Monica: Yeah.
Brandon: But now you have a criminal record, and you could be an innocent person that could have been having an argument with your significant other and it got loud to the point where a neighbor called the police. Well, guess what? Someone's getting arrested, whether you were acting innocently or not. Now this is something you have to deal with. And there are certain circumstances where it becomes the best interest of that person to resolve the case without going to trial. And what that may mean is through some sort of program that they have to complete or some sort of plea and pass that they would have to take where the case would ultimately get dropped.
Monica: Sure.
Brandon: But they're now having to do a class or they're having to pay a fine or they're having to do something —
Monica: Exactly.
Brandon: — and it's like they did nothing wrong.
Monica: Exactly.
Brandon: But what are the alternatives? Are you gonna let the case be open forever, potentially affecting your job and your livelihood? Like, what are — you know — people are gonna do background checks and they're gonna see that there's a —
Monica: Exactly.
Brandon: — domestic violence case and you're gonna sit there and explain, "No, you have to understand, it was that our neighbors called the police —"
Monica: Yeah.
Brandon: "— and that we didn't really call the police, and if you ask my wife, she really didn't want me to get prosecuted." You're not gonna be able to get through explaining all that. By the time somebody sees that you have this on your record, that's it. They are gonna judge you for it and, you know, if you're an employment candidate, potentially just move on from you.
Monica: Yeah.
Brandon: And that's really rough, but that's where we're seeing, you know, a potentially innocent person get pulled into the justice system and screwed, because —
Monica: So true.
Brandon: — there's really nothing that they can do at that point.
Monica: Yeah, and that's what I was talking about when I was saying, like, my clients have to face, like, these questions and make these decisions. Is this in their best interest? And, like, even just taking a diversion where you have to pay a fine and do an anger management class, they get pissed 'cause they didn't do anything wrong. You know what I mean? So they're like, "No, I don't wanna take this diversion DPA," whatever. And it's like, oh my gosh. Like, do you know what the alternative is? And so when clients know that and they wanna go for it, let's do it.
Brandon: Right.
Monica: But if they are on the fence and they're thinking about it, I'm like, okay, this is the time that we need to have, like, a full-on conversation about what is in your best interest, the risks and benefits of each. You know, that's when we come in. But that's so true. It's just something that happens all the time and something we see every day. The other one is, like, mental health, obviously. Like, this is a big one. People who struggle with mental health issues, anxiety, you know. How about autism? How about any other mental illness or mental impairment or some type of learning disability?
Brandon: One of the things that concerns me is people that potentially have — let's stick with autism. Let's say somebody is autistic and they get pulled over by the police. They may not react the same way that somebody else would react in that situation. And that could cause the police to think, "Oh, is this person DUI? Oh, is this person up to something, or are they trying to hide something from me?" The police may not know, and if they don't have proper training to deal with —
Monica: They don't.
Brandon: — somebody like that. And, but the truth is, can you train every single police officer to be a mental health expert or an expert in — listen, you can train them to identify certain signs, but ultimately they're gonna have to act within whatever the parameters of the situation that they're given are. And if they aren't trained, like most are not, to deal with that, then they're just gonna be approached by somebody who is giving off different social cues and speaks a different way or behaves a different way, and that's extremely concerning. I have a relative that has autism, and the biggest concern that my family has is that he will get pulled over, or he'll be —
Monica: Yeah.
Brandon: — involved in a situation that he can't express himself clearly, and that will lead to him being arrested when this guy would never hurt a fly or do anything wrong.
Monica: Yeah.
Brandon: But because he can't express himself in the same way that, you know, you or I can, an officer is going to interpret that one way and is gonna just go down the road of some sort of investigation.
Monica: Yeah.
Brandon: And that's really, really scary. And I think parents out there and siblings out there and families that have loved ones that have any sort of, whether it's a learning disability or an impairment of any kind, you know, if somebody has a terrible stutter, they may get freaked out —
Monica: Yeah.
Brandon: — when they're talking to the police.
Monica: Yeah.
Brandon: And now the police are gonna start saying, "Oh, well, this person is —"
Monica: Yeah.
Brandon: "— clearly acting in a suspicious way. There must be more going on." That's so unfair —
Monica: Yeah.
Brandon: — and it's unfortunate and it happens a lot —
Monica: Mm-hmm.
Brandon: — that these interactions with law enforcement occur, law enforcement's not trained properly how to deal with some of these people that are in these positions, and someone gets arrested and then has to deal with it. Or, you know, or worse, there's a rough arrest.
Monica: Mm-hmm.
Brandon: Like, you don't know what's gonna happen in those situations.
Monica: Yeah. And it's really, really sad.
Brandon: Sad, yeah.
Monica: Yeah.
Brandon: Yeah.
Monica: That's so true. And that is the reason why police need to be better trained.
Brandon: Yeah. Well, there has to be training on that and to understand and identify somebody that has a disability and may be speaking a certain way or behaving a certain way because of that, as opposed to just being suspicious. It's a really scary —
Monica: That reminds me of —
Brandon: It's a really scary thought.
Monica: Yeah. You told me a story about how your client was doing a plea for, I don't know, I think it was for a DUI or something in court and the judge called you 2 the bench and was like, "Are they under the influence?" But there was something, like, just about them that —
Brandon: I had a client that the way that this client spoke and her mannerisms and, you know, her nervous tics, kind of the way that she responded to the judge when the judge would ask questions. The judge was listening to this, has never seen this woman before.
Monica: Yeah.
Brandon: Doesn't know anything about her, and is saying, thinking to themselves, "I think this person's intoxicated. I think this person's drunk," and said, "Mr. Dinetz approach the bench," and I walk up and I'm thinking to myself, "What the fuck?"
Monica: Yeah.
Brandon: And the judge says to me, "You, your client good? You sure your client's not intoxicated?" And I said, "Yeah." And in my head I'm thinking to myself, "Yeah, I'm pretty fucking sure."
Monica: Yeah.
Brandon: Guys, there's nothing that I observed that made me think that she was drunk, and I wouldn't just let —
Monica: And you wouldn't put her up —
Brandon: I wouldn't just let, you know, somebody that was, like, intoxicated take a plea. I wouldn't let them take a plea. I wouldn't let them do anything like that in court. Because I'm responsible also at that point. So, "No." We said, "No," I said no to the judge —
Monica: Yeah.
Brandon: — went back, and the judge finished the plea.
Monica: Yeah.
Brandon: And that's a real thing.
Monica: Yeah.
Brandon: People are just different. And some people are nervous and they —
Monica: Yeah.
Brandon: — have different mannerisms and, you know, they may be extra chatty when they're nervous. And that's not an indicator that they're impaired or that they've done something wrong. It just may be the way they are. They may just be a little fucking weird.
Monica: Yeah.
Brandon: And that is how it is.
Monica: That's so true. A lot of people are a little strange. And, you know, just because they are, you can't interpret that as suspicious and slap a criminal charge on them for no reason.
Brandon: Yeah.
Monica: Speaking of being a little bit more chatty when you're nervous, people can feel like they can explain certain things away to the police.
Brandon: Oh, that's the worst.
Monica: And this happens so much where people just, they think that the police is gonna go away once they say something, and it's like, oh my God, you just made the situation so much worse.
Brandon: I say it all the time, you can't talk your way out of it.
Monica: Yes. It's like, just like Brandon says. Yeah, you cannot talk your way out of it.
Brandon: You can talk your way into it —
Monica: Yeah.
Brandon: — but you can't talk your way out of it.
Monica: Exactly. And that's just something that people, like, they just, I don't know, they tell themselves or, you know. I kinda understand, like, being chatty when you're nervous. Like, I definitely, when I started, like, litigating, I had a problem with, like, silence. And, you know, or in the courtroom or in general, just, like, lulls of silence. And I get it. It's just then you wanna fill the silence or you just wanna say something, you know? But it's, whatever you say when you're in a situation with the police like that, like, is not going to get you out of it, ever.
Brandon: Right.
Monica: So, anyways, just needed to say that because you said chatty and I was like, "Okay." And also, not to mention, police, during interrogation, can always lie. And that's another reason why sometimes innocent people —
Brandon: Wind up confessing.
Monica: — wind up confessing, and they, you know, police, it is the law that police are allowed to say, you know, "We have this video surveillance of you, you know, committing the crime." They can say that. They can say —
Brandon: They can lie during an interrogation in order to try to —
Monica: Elicit a confession.
Brandon: — elicit a confession. That can be done, yes.
Monica: Yeah. So, like, saying something like that —
Brandon: And it is done frequently.
Monica: Yeah. And so, when they do that, people get, like, mentally fucked with, and they're like, "Okay, then I guess that's what they have on me. Like, whatever. Like, let me just say what they want me to say, and maybe I'll get out of it." And that's not — you're just giving them more to build a case against you, 'cause they probably don't have that surveillance. Even if they say it, don't give it to them. So. Also, sitting in a potentially cold interrogation room for —
Brandon: No food, no water.
Monica: — hours and hours and hours, like, people break.
Brandon: Yeah.
Monica: And they just wanna get out of the situation. They don't, it's not a matter of wanting to accept guilt. They want to —
Brandon: Out.
Monica: — say, "I'm done with this." Like, "Let me go. I'll admit it." Like, "Anything is better than being in this position right now." And that's how you get confessions that are false.
Brandon: Yeah.
Monica: Yeah.
Brandon: Yeah.
Monica: And it's just, I don't know. It's just really hard to fight a case, especially when there is a confession, even when the facts are on your side, you know, circumstantially in the case. But you confessed, and then you have to explain that to the jury, if it goes to trial, why it is that you confessed when you didn't necessarily mean it. And jurors may be receptive to that, but at the same time, some people might be like, "Why the fuck would you ever confess to a crime that you did not commit?"
Brandon: Right. And a lot of people think that — but we're explaining the reasons kind of why that would happen, and —
Monica: Yeah.
Brandon: — when we're talking about, you know, okay, so ultimately, you're accused of a criminal offense you didn't do. Let's go to trial. On the lead-up to trial, things can happen that can make a person want to resolve their case. One of those things is the judge. While you're going through the lead-up to trial, the judge is going to ask questions and colloquy the person that is deciding to go to trial to make sure that they wanna go to trial. And in a criminal case, part of that colloquy includes expressing what the last offer from the State Attorney's office was, and what the maximum possible sentence is, and what the minimum possible sentence is, and what type of discretion the judge has, and what type of consequences could potentially come after a person is found guilty. And that process oftentimes pressures an individual to take a plea —
Monica: 100%.
Brandon: — because they are hearing from a judge, for the first time, or maybe not, but they're hearing from a judge, "You are facing X amount of years in prison at maximum, and I'm the one that can put you in there for that amount of time if you're found guilty. You understand that? You get that?" Like, they're obviously not supposed to be doing that, and the best judges really don't, they do it in a way where they're not pressuring the person to do anything. But it's very easy for a person to feel pressured in that situation because they're thinking to themselves, "All right. Well, in my head, I'm innocent. I know if I go to trial, like, I'm innocent. I'm gonna be found not guilty." But then you hear the person in the robe say, "Look, you may think whatever you want, but if you're not right, and you're found guilty, this is what — this is the weaponry —"
Monica: It's the situation.
Brandon: "— that I have against you —"
Monica: Yeah.
Brandon: "— and this is the punishment that I could put on you." And oftentimes, somebody may hear that, may hear what the offer is from the state, and think, "Well, the offer from the state really isn't that bad compared to what this guy could possibly —"
Monica: Exactly.
Brandon: "— give me after trial. And even though I really didn't do anything, the risk that a jury could come back and find me guilty is still there, just like this judge is saying, so, you know, maybe I should talk to my lawyer and take a plea." Another thing —
Monica: And you have people go and take a plea that did nothing wrong.
Brandon: Another thing that happens every single day.
Monica: All the time. I've had clients swear they are going to trial until they have this conversation with the judge, and then they turn around, they're like, "I'm ready to take a plea." And I'm like, "Where did that come from?"
Brandon: Right.
Monica: Like, "What? I thought we were good." And so, like, this is something that happens all the time, especially when you throw in sentencing enhancements, PRR. Like, if there's, like, a mandatory, like, aside from a score sheet, there's a mandatory minimum that you're supposed to be serving if you are found guilty of this specific charge. Those are ways that the judge can ultimately be like, "You know, I can sentence you to X, Y, and Z, and this is the situation if you're found guilty." And that is something almost every single judge, at least in Palm Beach County, will not even go to trial until they have this conversation with our clients, because they wanna make sure that it's clear on the record that this person is aware of their plea offer, aware of their charges, aware of the enhancements, aware of the time that they're facing, and aware of the risk associated with trial. And when you go over a plea agreement and the rights that your client is waiving by accepting a plea, before they go before the court, there is a portion in there that says, like, "Nobody promised," or, "Nobody —"
Brandon: Threatened.
Monica: "No one threatened, forced —"
Brandon: Exactly.
Monica: "— or coerced you to take the plea."
Brandon: Exactly.
Monica: And I've had clients, after doing a colloquy, and we're going through this sheet together. They're like, "I don't wanna even sign that part." And I'm like, "You have to, because then the judge won't even accept your plea." The reason why is because they genuinely feel coerced taking a plea, because they're like, "The state is strong-arming me. The judge is strong-arming me, and I have no other choice." But it's like, actually, in reality, you do have another choice, you just don't like the other choice. So, because — like, going to trial is not fun either, you know? For them, so — I should say. You know, like, in situations like that, you have to really prepare our — we have to prepare our clients in those situations that this is going to happen. This conversation will go down with the judge. It's not about if, it's about when, and it's gonna happen before trial and judges will sometimes even do it the morning of trial, but they just need it to be a clear thing on the record. And like you're saying, some judges will just be like, "This is the charge, this is the max. You want trial or not?" And then that's really how it should go. Then others will be like, "And you are aware that if you are found guilty, that you are facing this enhancement, and this enhancement carries X, Y, and Z," and dah, dah, dah, dah. And like, it's this whole, like, 30-minute conversation where, you know, they just wanna make sure, I guess, that the defense counsel's doing their job, which obviously, if you are the attorney on the case, you would be having those conversations, 'cause otherwise you would get an ineffective assistance of counsel claim against you, and it would be successful.
Brandon: Mm-hmm.
Monica: So, all that to say that this is something that also happens every single day in every case that pleas or goes to trial.
Brandon: Yeah.
Monica: So, another thing that explains why innocent people end up with criminal convictions and pleading guilty, but —
Brandon: I will say when somebody is dead-to-rights guilty though, and they wanna go to trial still, and then they go in front of the judge and you have that conversation, and it's like the judge is basically telling them, like, "You're guilty, but the state is offering you something less than I'm willing to give you. Like, do you wanna consider it?" In those situations, it's almost like a wake-up call for the person, because they are seeing, you know, it's —
Monica: It's a completely different situation than the guy —
Brandon: That's true.
Monica: — that has a great case.
Brandon: That's so true.
Monica: If somebody has a terrible case, it's like, this is the wake-up call that you need, because you really do wanna take that plea that's being offered by the state. You don't wanna face the judge. Whereas, there's the other side, which is what we're talking about, with, like, the innocent client dealing with that, and it's like, shit, this sucks for this person, because they shouldn't feel pressured at all.
Brandon: Yeah.
Monica: They should go to trial, and if this judge knew the facts, and if this judge saw all the evidence, they probably wouldn't be trying to pressure them anyways, which I don't think the judges are trying to do, unless they really think it's some ridiculous situation and, like, the state's offering to drop the case ultimately, and for some reason the person's just stubborn or it's out of principle, or whatever the case may be, which that does happen too. We've seen that. Yeah. But, you know, ultimately the person shouldn't be pressured by the court to take any sort of —
Brandon: Yeah.
Monica: — plea or resolution.
Brandon: Yeah. I mean, sometimes the court does just intervene sometimes, and it sucks, but —
Monica: And they shouldn't. You know, sometimes they reject pleas or whatever, like kind of like what you were implying —
Brandon: Yeah.
Monica: But, you know, that's another topic for another day, y'all.
Brandon: For another episode.
Wrap-Up
Monica: But if you liked listening to the pod, make sure you like, comment, and subscribe. We are on all platforms, comebackwithawarrant.pod. Give us a 5-star review and subscribe to our weekly newsletter, and if you didn't like listening to us —
Brandon: Come back with a warrant.