Come Back With a Warrant
Episode 34: Collaboration Over Competition in the Legal Field: Co-Counsel, Credibility & Community
Hosted by Brandon Dinetz and Monica Ishak
Intro
Brandon: Welcome back to Come Back With a Warrant podcast. I'm Brandon Dinetz.
Monica: And I'm Monica Ishak.
Monica: Before we kick-start this week's episode, this is your reminder that this podcast is not legal advice. It's real, unfiltered, and for entertainment purposes only. If you need to speak with a lawyer, call one. Or better yet, call us.
Brandon: Call us.
Episode
Monica: Welcome back. Today, we are talking about all things collaboration over competition. Obviously, it's not ironic that we're talking about this because Brandon and I do the same thing, and we work together. I think it's something that's, like, necessary to be discussed, and I think some people honestly should take notes.
Brandon: Yeah, well, that's true. Because one of the things that people do often is see the space that they're working in, and everybody else working in that space, as the enemy or the competition. And the truth is, you can make any person or any entity the enemy or the competition, but it's all about, you know, choosing those people correctly.
Monica: Yeah.
Brandon: There was a great book, Choose Your Enemies Wisely, and that talks a lot about kind of what we're gonna get into a little bit about, competition versus collaboration. And I think one of the things that is a big takeaway for us is we both have criminal defense firms. We both practice the same area of the law. But ultimately, we don't look at it as we are competitors with each other. We have chosen to make ourselves collaborators and expand both of our brands, in addition to building a different brand on top of it, which is this one —
Monica: Yeah, the Come Back With a Warrant brand. Exactly.
Brandon: And that's a huge thing to be able to do, and I think it's a long game strategy.
Monica: Yeah.
Brandon: It's not about — you know, the short game strategy is there's a brand-new DUI that comes into the pool, and one firm is gonna get that DUI, and the other firms are competing for that DUI.
Monica: Right.
Brandon: And who's gonna have the better pricing, and who's gonna have the better marketing to get it, et cetera. That's the short-term goal.
Monica: Yeah.
Brandon: But long-term is building brands and strategically making sure that our reputations are growing and that we're growing as authorities and doing really everything that we can to make each one of our businesses successful, but also promoting something together and coming together, which is that collaboration.
Monica: Yeah. Well, talking about in terms of long-term and short-term goals, like what you're saying, I feel like there is oftentimes a mindset issue. And you can kinda identify it when you speak to certain people because if you do see it as the goal is to get the DUI or, like, get the, you know, be the most competitive to get a DUI, let's say, you're not thinking — I relate to what you're saying 'cause I feel like you're speaking my language in a sense of we have a bigger vision, and I think that's how you know you're aligned with that person versus if I'm talking to somebody who is seen as, quote, unquote, 'a competitor,' and they're talking to me about getting — I don't wanna say talking to me about getting more cases 'cause we also talk about that, but it's more so in a growth sense of our businesses growing. But trying to get, like, the quickest buck, in a sense — that doesn't really resonate with me as somebody who would wanna collaborate. So it's, like, also identifying if you guys are aligned in terms of mindset as well.
Brandon: Mm-hmm.
Monica: And so I think that that — that is a really big deal, and I think that comes in every aspect of people's lives when you choose partnerships. But, you know, people say business partnerships are like marriage partnerships in a sense, which, you know, we do kind of balance each other in that way. I'm not the one doing everything. You're not the one doing everything. We split things up. You know, you do, like, kind of more of the creative stuff. You also look at metrics.
Brandon: Yeah, absolutely.
Monica: I do other things in terms of, like, the newsletter and stuff —
Brandon: Right, right, right.
Monica: — and posting on social. So we have, like, our strengths, and we combine them to make our businesses even better. Like, enhance that. So it's like, if you think that you can carry everything on your own and excel at your very best by yourself, then you probably shouldn't be collaborating with people. You know what I mean? I just don't think collaboration's for everybody.
Brandon: No, it's not. And if you look at two different firms that do, let's say, they're heavy with tickets and traffic and specifically, let's say, DUI. Two firms that are specializing in traffic tickets and traffic type of cases working together and collaborating doesn't really make a lot of sense because they're really fighting for the same pool of —
Monica: Yeah.
Brandon: — cases, and their strategies are more in line to be their own machine, their own product. And a lot of times, those firms are a little bit bigger. There's multiple attorneys. You don't see those two types of firms aligning with each other —
Monica: Yeah.
Brandon: — and coming out with a cross-promotion.
Monica: Yeah.
Brandon: You really do have to pick who you collaborate with, and especially when you form a business. Like, we have created a new business. We're business partners with the podcast. It is important that you have the same goals —
Monica: Yeah.
Brandon: — the same vision, and the right trust. Because if the idea was, yeah, we're working together on a podcast, but, you know, if a phone call comes in, like, we have to jump out and make sure one of us gets the case over the other, like, that —
Monica: Yeah.
Brandon: — we wouldn't be able to do this effectively because that would be kind of what's in the back of our —
Monica: Yeah.
Brandon: — minds. And it's not — it's just not the way that we do it. You see a lot of other lawyers that collaborate, and, you know, in criminal defense, you do see a good amount of collaboration because solo practitioners will go with each other to trial often.
Monica: Yeah.
Brandon: And we even had a case where we almost were in trial together recently. But you'll see different private criminal defense attorneys work together on trials, especially when they're in different jurisdictions because — you know, if I need help with a case in Tampa, I'm gonna contact a lawyer I know in Tampa that knows the players really well, understands the way that the courts and the judges make their decisions in Tampa, and then I can come in with the defense strategies and the mindset that I have, and collaborate with that person in order to give a client that's in Tampa the best possible defense.
Monica: Yeah.
Brandon: Which doesn't mean that I couldn't do it on my own —
Monica: Yeah.
Brandon: — but I know how much better I can make it for that client.
Monica: Exactly. So in order to collaborate, a part of like this mindset shift that I'm talking about is like removing your ego out of it. Because obviously I would love to say that I'm the one that did all the work, and got this success, you know, all by myself. That's, like, great or whatever. But how much better would it be if you have a second set of eyes on the case, someone who can — like, double-check all of your work, and maybe give you some suggestions, and vice versa. I know I'm not perfect, and I know that, you know, I have shortfalls. I make mistakes. I make mistakes all the time, and you have to know that and be able to stay in your lane. But if you are not going to be able to take criticism in any way from anybody, why even join forces? You know what I mean?
Brandon: That's true.
Monica: Like, if your ego is gonna get in the way of anything, you have no business collaborating with anybody, or being on the same team as anybody.
Brandon: Yeah. And I touched upon this a little bit earlier, but it's such a good way to build credibility as well, because if another lawyer has a question about something and I can say, 'Oh, you know who you should call is Monica on that. She has had a case just like that. You know, her and I have tried cases together. She's really good.' Now that new lawyer says, 'Oh, okay. Brandon told me that she is on her game. This is a person to call. Let me call her.' You have that new credibility, and that helps you build new relationships.
Monica: Yeah.
Brandon: The right collaboration helps you grow and expand, and reach new people that you wouldn't have ordinarily reached on your own —
Monica: So true.
Brandon: — and talk to different people that you ordinarily may not have had a connection with. And whether that's within the field or outside of the field, I mean, you and I can recommend accountants to each other.
Monica: Yeah.
Brandon: We can recommend financial advisors to each other. There are different things that our collaboration can use on —
Monica: We use the same — yeah.
Brandon: Yeah, we use some of the same marketing people.
Monica: Exactly right. And again, if we didn't have the relationship where we work well together and we can collaborate, like, you're not necessarily gonna want your marketing team to work with someone else in the same space, in the same —
Brandon: Exactly.
Monica: — geo area that you are. But if you have the right relationship, like now we have a team that can put extra posts about our podcast on different social media.
Brandon: Yeah. So we're using everything and we're leveraging everything, and the cross-promotion is the same if you go on someone. If we went on another podcast, now we're building the brand further, but we're not building one of us over the other. We're building it as —
Monica: Together.
Brandon: — a unit.
Monica: Together, right. Well, like even today we were talking. So we actually ironically — well, it's not ironic. I follow Brandon. We share a landlord, I should say. I was gonna say we share an office space, but we don't 'cause we're in different buildings.
Brandon: Right.
Monica: But the landlord's the same. And so they have this thing called Member Monday where you can highlight your business, and so I was doing it for mine. And I was like, 'We should do it for the podcast,' and I'm sure you will hopefully do it for your business too.
Brandon: Yeah. Well, now that I know about it —
Monica: Yeah, of course.
Brandon: Yeah.
Monica: So even just being able to find different ways to even promote ourselves, and then each other's businesses, and then our shared business, is beneficial to both of us. So I don't ever see it as like I'm hurting my business. I always see it as like, you know, if you're winning, I'm winning.
Brandon: Yeah. And that is a question, though, because collaboration — the wrong collaboration can lead to brand dilution. And if you're hurting your brand with your collaboration, then there's no reason to be doing that.
Monica: I think that comes into play when you're not aligned, and I have seen that happen where it's like maybe, and this would maybe make sense with people who don't practice the same way, like in their attorney practice. Or maybe if you're in another profession, this really applies everywhere. So I just think that if you are somebody that maybe would take a more conservative approach versus an aggressive approach, you know, you probably aren't aligned in the sense of, like, we can co-counsel a case together. You're willing to kinda hear my ideas out in terms of our defense or our strategy and all these things. Or maybe even on the podcast. Like, not all our ideas are great, but we bounce them off each other, and then we see how we can make it better. You know, we always kinda talk out loud. And so if you were to say, you know, like, 'That's a shitty idea' —
Brandon: Right.
Monica: — every single time, then we're clearly —
Brandon: It wouldn't be working.
Monica: — not aligned.
Brandon: Right. Yeah, exactly.
Monica: So that's also a part of it. So it's like knowing your competitors, 'competitors,' quotes around that — like the people who aren't in your industry —
Brandon: Mm-hmm.
Monica: — and knowing how they work. 'Cause, like, I knew you as my opponent first. That is how I knew Brandon.
Brandon: That's exactly right.
Monica: And I never — like, obviously, we had our moments where we were not — we obviously didn't always agree.
Brandon: Mm-hmm.
Monica: We still don't always agree, but it's fine because there was always that respect between each other. You know, I always thought you were a great attorney. I never really thought anything low of you, you know? There were times where I was maybe frustrated, but that's about —
Brandon: But also, yeah, we were doing our jobs. We were on the opposite side doing jobs.
Monica: Yeah, exactly. That's part of the game.
Brandon: Yeah.
Monica: So that's the other thing. When you know who's in your industry, you really never know how you're gonna end up — like, I would've never guessed, if you would've told me in 2019 when I met you that we would be business partners down the line —
Brandon: Probably not.
Monica: I would've been like, 'What? That's so random.'
Brandon: Yeah. As a prosecutor, I would not have thought — if you would've said, 'You will be in business with a public defender by the time you're in the private space,' I would say, 'You're totally full of shit. There's no way that's gonna —' But that's, like — it's different. Now it's like, of course we're in business together.
Monica: Yeah. It wouldn't —
Brandon: It makes total sense to me.
Monica: It makes so much sense. Right. That's so funny. Yeah. So all that to say is that if you know who's in your industry, you know how they work, you know, if they're reasonable or not. Like, if he was a hard-ass prosecutor, I probably — I know, we said that in the past and joked about it, and maybe you were at one point. But I didn't experience that side of you most of the time, so.
Brandon: No, I'm sure there are people from the public defender's office that would not have started companies with me.
Monica: I think that's a reflection of you. There are some that would have.
Brandon: Yeah.
Monica: Say, like, yeah.
Brandon: But there are some people at the state's office that I would definitely not.
Monica: There you go. So, like — yeah, exactly. There you go. That's true. 'Cause you're not aligned. And so when you see that this person can be reasonable, like, you can actually be a defen— there are people who become defense attorneys from the state's office that it feels like they never left the state's office. Where they're basically just prosecuting on —
Brandon: The defense side.
Monica: Right. Which is scary, 'cause you really have no idea —
Brandon: Yeah.
Monica: — that you're getting that when you're hiring an attorney. But not saying that Brandon's like that. I'm saying he's not like that. That's my point.
Brandon: You heard it here first.
Monica: So if that was the case, I wouldn't have wanted to do business with you. And so that's my point, is that you need to know who's in your industry, how they work, you know, just generally in your work.
Brandon: Right.
Monica: And if they are somebody you respect and all those things. Because if not, you're never going to succeed. So it's just a matter of making things happen and moving forward together. But —
Brandon: The other thing that has to align is the business models have to align.
Monica: Oh, yeah.
Brandon: Because if I had a volume practice and you had a practice where all you did was go to trials and you just waited, you know, you took cases from other lawyers when they were primed and ready to go to trial and that was your whole practice — like, if we were coming from two different types of practices, it would make things a little bit challenging.
Monica: Yeah.
Brandon: If I was in the civil space and you were in the criminal space, and we were just completely different with the way that our schedules work —
Monica: Yeah.
Brandon: — and everything. Like, we have similar schedules. We have similar weekly layouts, like how we meet, when we meet our clients versus when we have time to work on the actual case, watch the evidence that we have —
Monica: Yeah.
Brandon: — write motions, and then work on the podcast. We have similar enough schedules that we can say, 'Okay, we can plan to have time to collaborate and do the things that we need to for the podcast.' If we had different roles or different jobs, like, we wouldn't be able to do that.
Monica: That's true. It's not the same. And also, I was thinking about — we also both value our brands. And I think that's kind of a new lingo for business owners who are, especially professional business owners, 'cause I think as a professional business owner, you think you need to show up and just be an attorney, and I think that there's so much more to being an entrepreneur in general. If you become a business owner, you carry so many roles. And you do value your brand and reputation in the sense of a brand — like, the actual marketing term for brand and how you make people feel and how your clients feel when you're servicing them. You actually care about the service you're delivering. And so, you know, if you have similar brand — like, the schedules are aligned, but also your brand business model is similar — you can work together on things such as this podcast because we value the same things in the business. So bringing all — kind of making sure all the cards are aligned in that sense. And, you know, people can collaborate in more ways than becoming business partners, right?
Brandon: Mm-hmm.
Monica: Like, that is the most, I guess, extreme —
Brandon: Yeah, that's the —
Monica: — example.
Brandon: Yeah, right.
Monica: But you can collaborate just on a trial, or you can collaborate, you know —
Brandon: Just motions and — yeah, I mean, I was reading about lawyers, and that was one of the reasons why I gave the example. Lawyers in other jurisdictions working together or lawyers — if I was reading and I saw that some lawyer had a really great appellate argument for an issue and I find that I have that issue, I can contact that lawyer and say, 'Hey, I need some help with this issue,' and see if bringing them onto the case is the right move, if having them handle just an appellate issue is the right move. And then ultimately their involvement in the case can turn into them being a co-counsel if it goes to trial. Or that is just a new developed relationship that now, just like networking which we talk about also, that expands your outreach to who you can lean on for other resources in the future, potential clients, and, you know, you don't know what other opportunities are gonna come out of it, but a lot of it is building relationships, and you have to be willing to collaborate with other people to continue to build and grow.
Monica: Yeah. I feel like whenever you go into a situation openly, genuinely, and you're like, 'Anything can come of this. Let me just show up and be my best,' whatever that situation is asking of you, whether you're sitting on a motion or someone's asking for help, and you could be like, 'Oh, you know, like I don't —' you could have maybe these creeping thoughts that are like, 'I don't know if I wanna help this person 'cause this person is my competitor, and if I help them, then they're gonna do better than me, and then I'm not gonna —' like, this scarcity mindset.
Brandon: Mm-hmm.
Monica: I was gonna say feast or famine —
Brandon: Mm-hmm.
Monica: — but that's not what I meant. Just, like, not thinking that this could bring more to you is a damaging way of thinking, and so I think that also comes into play and can bite you in the butt — it's a way of self-sabotage, honestly. Showing up to situations thinking that it's not going to work out for you before anything even goes down is a way to make sure that it's not gonna work out for you.
Brandon: Yeah. And it can be very isolating, and it can hinder your growth tremendously because your lack of willing to work with other people, and only relying on yourself, limits your ability. It makes it so growing is harder.
Monica: Yeah.
Brandon: You're not learning.
Monica: No.
Brandon: You know, I learn new stuff from you all the time —
Monica: Yeah, same.
Brandon: — and different ways to carry on in other parts of my practice. That's just by virtue of working with other people, and you have to be — you're totally right. You have to be open to working with another person, and that includes all the feedback. That includes, you know, you pick up the slack where the other person is not as strong, and they're vice versa picking it up for you where you're not as strong. Like, you have to be able to do all that.
Monica: Yeah.
Brandon: Yeah.
Monica: So it's just, I think, a lot to consider, especially when I think the legal field is very competitive.
Brandon: Mm-hmm.
Monica: I think even just from the start of law school, you're kind of trained to believe that it is like a dog-eat-dog world, which to an extent —
Brandon: It is —
Monica: — to an extent —
Brandon: And it can be — yeah.
Monica: At the end of the day, we're all working to make money and have careers and do well.
Brandon: Yeah.
Monica: And there ultimately are only so many cases out there to get, but there are a lot of cases. And if you're doing this —
Brandon: Yeah.
Monica: — long enough and if you're doing this the right way —
Brandon: Something that an older lawyer told me when I first started out on my own was, 'There is enough business for everybody out there.' And you have to have that mindset that there is, especially —
Monica: 100%.
Brandon: — with our world.
Monica: Yeah.
Brandon: In the criminal world —
Monica: Increasingly.
Brandon: Right. There is more than enough business out there for everybody. You don't wanna be the person that's known as the guy that undercuts everybody else. Or it's like, 'Oh, so and so quoted you XYZ. Well, I'm gonna quote you XYZ minus $500.' And those guys are out there, and that's predominantly in the more volume firms and —
Monica: Yeah.
Brandon: — people that don't manage their money properly, that are concerned about every single cent —
Monica: Cent that comes in the door.
Brandon: Exactly right. You lose out by having that mentality, and you also gain a bad reputation for being like that.
Monica: Yeah.
Brandon: Because it's very easy for people to figure out that they're constantly being undercut by certain lawyers. When I first became a private attorney and I was learning how to, you know, quote prices for the first time, you're very susceptible to either undercutting other people or trying to figure out what somebody else is saying that they would charge to do it and seeing if you could get —
Monica: Or who that person talked to.
Brandon: Right, and caring about who the other people talked to. That's a slippery slope. There are lawyers out there that after they speak with a lead, they will look and see online ultimately if that person hired somebody else —
Monica: Hired, yeah.
Brandon: — who they hired.
Monica: Mm-hmm.
Brandon: And it creates a negative feeling.
Monica: Yeah.
Brandon: And it's just not the way that you wanna conduct your business, and it's not healthy —
Monica: No.
Brandon: — to conduct your business like that.
Monica: Yeah. I was gonna say, it's not sustainable.
Brandon: Right.
Monica: Like, how are you gonna run your business that you have to move on? There's gonna be more people that are gonna come and go. Money comes and goes, you know? So having that mindset, and I think that's just being a business owner and knowing that you're not gonna get every case that calls you. You're, just like —
Brandon: True.
Monica: — you walk into a store and you check out what's in there, sometimes you walk out without buying anything. That's what happens, and it's like, it is what it is. It's a part of running a business.
Brandon: Right. And you can dilute your brand by being the cheapest lawyer out there —
Monica: Yeah.
Brandon: — if you wanna be. And if you wanna sign every case, you absolutely can, but just know that you're gonna be —
Monica: Good luck.
Brandon: — taking hundreds and hundreds of cases for —
Monica: And draining your energy.
Brandon: Right, for no money and not having any time to do anything —
Monica: Yeah.
Brandon: — with your life, because you're just taking every case in the door at a very low budget. And oftentimes if you're doing that, you're not giving the best service to your clients —
Monica: Yes.
Brandon: — and you're not — you're working as, you know, like, basically a PD.
Monica: Right. You're basically working — which I think it's worse honestly because the PD's office, although it's known for limited resources, it's set up in a way where they make it so that it runs so smoothly with the amount of cases that come in the door versus a one-man-show business owner who doesn't have investigators, funding, social workers, multiple attorneys and staff in the office to be able to handle that caseload. So when you're taking everything that comes in the door when you're just starting out a business, which is so easy to get tempted to do that because I was —
Brandon: 'Cause you wanna get the money.
Monica: Yeah. I was once there. I related to that. Even with coverage hearings, I didn't know how to even charge for a coverage hearing. You know what I mean? I was like, 'I don't know.' You know? And platforms online that'll charge $25 for you to cover a civil hearing that'll take an hour and a half. I would never —
Brandon: It's not worth it.
Monica: Exactly. In that time, I could have had lunch with someone that could send me a single case that will be way more —
Brandon: Worth it, yeah.
Monica: — you know what I mean? So it's like things like that, like understanding, and that's a part of your brand values, like, to confirm if you align with this person, because there are other attorneys that will do coverage hearings for $25, and I don't want to collab with them. Like, no offense, but —
Brandon: No, and —
Monica: — it's oftentimes the attorneys that are just doing the coverage for other attorneys when they're in court. As a prosecutor, I could tell you it was frustrating —
Brandon: Yeah.
Monica: — because I would need to do work on a case or try to move a case along, and I have an attorney that's there that's just saying, 'Oh, I don't know anything about the case. I'm just here covering.' Well, now the rules changed. And that means nothing —
Brandon: Yeah.
Monica: And the rules have changed to make it so that if you are gonna be covering —
Brandon: You have an ethical obligation.
Monica: You have, correct, and you have to —
Brandon: Know what's going on with the case, and be able to do something and take some action on the case. Now, that's not to say that there's circumstances where you need a coverage attorney, like something comes up or —
Monica: Yeah.
Brandon: — you're double-booked or something like that. It's fine. That's fine. But when a coverage attorney is covering the same case over and over and over again, and nothing's ever getting done, it's like, what are — the disadvantage to the client is huge at that point because they're not getting effective representation. They're just getting somebody showing up to court that's just resetting the case every time.
Monica: Yeah.
Brandon: So that's problematic. But that all ties into one of the biggest benefits of collaboration is the benefit to the client — getting multiple sets of eyes on a case, or getting different strategies or different defenses, or a different perspective on the case. Because you and I have different — we come and approach a case from a different perspective. I can approach it from the experience of, okay, I used to handle this on the other side. Let me hone in on exactly how the other side is gonna handle this, what they're gonna do, and factor that into everything that I'm gonna do on the defense side. You can come into a case and say, 'Okay, I've handled hundreds of these cases from the defense side already. What are the different ways that I've handled these cases in the past, and what is the most effective to do that?'
Monica: Yeah.
Brandon: And tie in, obviously, the knowledge you have of the other side.
Monica: Yeah.
Brandon: We just can have different approaches and different strategies, and if we're able to give that to one client, that could be tremendous for that client.
Monica: Yeah. And we've done that before —
Brandon: Yeah.
Monica: — you and I.
Brandon: Yeah.
Monica: And honestly, the client was so excited to have two attorneys on the case, and that was something that we weren't even planning for, 'cause that was before or maybe in the very early stages that he hired me when we started, when we joined forces.
Brandon: Mm-hmm.
Monica: So it ended up that we ended up potentially going to trial on this case, and we sat together, we prepped for trial. We did basically everything to go to trial, but it got dismissed, so that was a success we had.
Brandon: Better —
Monica: Yeah.
Brandon: — than having to go to trial. But it ended up — we did do that, and it was successful, and I believe we would've been successful at trial.
Monica: Yeah, I think so too. I think it would've been a really great — like, I'm excited to try a case with him, you know. I've tried cases against him, but I haven't tried a case with him yet, so I'm excited.
Brandon: Fair enough, yeah.
Monica: Yeah. So I think we will make an even better trial team. But obviously having more brains on that side is always a great idea. I don't think it's ever going to hurt, but being able to be open and approach the cases similarly is also huge. And, you know, if you saw your teammate as your competitor, like, how successful can you really be?
Brandon: That's true.
Monica: You know?
Brandon: Yeah, that's true, and that takes away from the strength of the team.
Monica: Exactly. And there are people —
Brandon: Yeah.
Monica: — but the thing is people operate this way —
Brandon: Yeah, that's true.
Monica: — every single day.
Brandon: Well, there are people in firms that are multiple-attorney firms, and they are competitive within, against the other people within their firm because their firms are set up in such a way that there's a bonus structure that's based on what people are bringing in. You can have bad competition within your own firm.
Monica: Yeah.
Brandon: And that can hurt your brand tremendously, and word gets around. The legal community is small.
Monica: So small.
Brandon: So everybody knows the business of everybody else. Everybody knows who sued who over what, what law firms sue other law firms, and they get terrible reputations. You see this stuff happen.
Monica: Yeah. Well, I go, I network all the time, and people now that we have dropped, you know, I think over 20 episodes. Obviously in the beginning, people didn't know we were in business together. We were still announcing it. But people every — almost everywhere I go, people, someone mentions your name to me, or vice versa.
Brandon: Mm-hmm.
Monica: When I introduce Come Back With a Warrant, I'm like, 'It's me and my business partner, co-host, Brandon Dinetz,' so I almost said Dinetz 'cause he —
Brandon: Sure.
Monica: — corrected me before and I said it wrong. But, yeah, people talk is the point — when I introduce Come Back With a Warrant, they're like, 'Oh, I know Brandon.'
Brandon: Yeah.
Monica: You know? Or, 'I know Jen.' I get the same. If it's not Brandon, then they know Jen. I get the same vice versa.
Brandon: Everybody knows Jen.
Monica: Yeah. So everybody knows everybody. Everybody talks, and if you don't know that person directly, you definitely know somebody that's connected to that person. So even if you are not necessarily collaborating with this person, just when networking, kind of like a side tip, always be respectful and kind and be a good person, because people literally talk.
Brandon: Well, that's a really good point, and something that I don't think everybody follows. But one of the things that I'm consistent with is if I've ever been asked, and I have, by other potential clients or other lawyers about my opinion about another lawyer, somebody that they've spoken to, somebody that they know representing — and this happens whether it's a current client telling me, or a — excuse me, a prospective client telling me they've spoken to X, Y, Z lawyer, what's my opinion on them, or another person in the legal community telling me, 'Oh, I know somebody that's being represented by X, Y, Z. What do you think of them?' I make it a point to never speak badly about another lawyer. If I don't like another lawyer, if I have a reason — you know, if I was a prosecutor and I said, 'Oh, God, that defense attorney is super lazy or whatever,' that's never something that I disclose.
Monica: Yeah.
Brandon: If somebody's asking me about my opinion on a lawyer and I don't have a good opinion, I generally just don't give an opinion —
Monica: Yeah.
Brandon: — at all. It's better not to say anything. There's no reason —
Monica: Yeah.
Brandon: — to shit talk the other people that are in your —
Monica: Yeah.
Brandon: — in your profession, especially because of how small the —
Monica: Yeah.
Brandon: — circle is. And there's nothing beneficial.
Monica: I think it's more of a reflection — yeah, it's more of a reflection of you.
Brandon: Exactly right. Exactly right. And those are usually the people who do end up talking shit are the people that are in a scarcity mindset because they're concerned about this person leaving or hanging up the phone and going to hire that other person.
Monica: Right. So, I think, again, it all ties down and comes down to how you operate as an individual, as a business, in your field as an attorney. There are so many things that if you were to operate that way, I wouldn't have wanted to work with you. You know? And so, and I'm sure vice versa.
Brandon: Mm-hmm.
Monica: So I think being able to approach people and have kind of open conversations and see if they're open to it — like, I honestly didn't know where this was gonna go at all in the beginning. I'm so grateful that I did this. This isn't — we're just scratching the surface, we're just getting started. We didn't even drop 100 episodes yet. Like, we're still in the baby stages of this business, but I'm just very grateful that we were able to join forces and collaborate and provide better services to our clients. Like, those are such great things. And being able to — you know, I know we're not in the same building, but we have the same landlord, and, like, I don't know. Like, I feel like it's so cool too.
Brandon: It is cool. Yeah. And it's nice. Anytime I say that we have a company together or I mention your name and the people that already know you, it's just like, oh, they know I made a good decision.
Monica: Yeah.
Brandon: Yeah. And that just doubles down for me because you have such a good reputation.
Monica: That makes it, like, oh, yeah, I did make a great fucking decision.
Brandon: Yeah.
Monica: Like, you're proud.
Brandon: Like, this was —
Monica: You're proud of it. Right. Like, good. It's me too. I'm not gonna lie to you. That was smart of — that was good decision-making on my end. Like, that's, like —
Brandon: Yeah, no, I mean —
Monica: I just, I feel that and that's totally true.
Brandon: I will say, I didn't always make the best decisions when it comes to partnerships.
Monica: Well, fair enough.
Brandon: As a divorced person.
Monica: Yeah.
Brandon: Well, I'm doing pretty good. I've got very good —
Monica: Yes. Thank God.
Brandon: I've got a good work situation. I got a good home situation, so so far I've made — these have been good decisions.
Monica: You, like, can't get it out. I'm just kidding.
Brandon: No, I'm always down to talk about my team at home. I got the best team at home.
Monica: Yeah. You always do.
Brandon: I am, I'm very happy with that. And ultimately, I've been blessed to have good bosses before this. The firm that I worked at beforehand, the partners there, I loved —
Monica: They collaborated really well.
Brandon: — and I had a really good relationship with all of them. I still do have a good relationship with all of them. There's none of them that I can't pick up the phone and call. Anybody that I've worked with before or worked for before —
Monica: For support, no.
Brandon: I can pick up the phone and call. And even if they are competitors —
Monica: Yeah.
Brandon: — in a sense that they do criminal defense, it's never a concern of mine.
Monica: That's another big deal. Like, it's so isolating sometimes to work as a solo, and since we've joined forces, I feel like — even though I agree with you, I have that support, I can call people from my past that I've worked for, I just think that when you have people that you are in good relationship with in your industry, you can pick up the phone and call them, be like, 'Hey, what would you do in this situation?' Or like, 'Can you cover me,' you know, for whatever. And you just help each other out.
Brandon: It's so big, and it's such a benefit. The benefit to the clients can't be understated —
Monica: Yeah.
Brandon: — because I can pick up the phone and call somebody with a lot more experience than I have or experience in a certain area that I am lacking, and feel confident that I'm gonna get answers that are ultimately going to benefit my client. They're not answers that — I don't think anybody's gonna mislead me intentionally or try to fuck me over.
Monica: Yeah.
Brandon: I'm sure that'll happen eventually, but I've been blessed with —
Monica: Yeah.
Brandon: — working with good people in the past, and, you know, whether it's the boss that I had in law school, who's a big-time attorney, or the ones that I worked for after the state attorney's office, I have been — and I would imagine they would all say the same about me.
Monica: Yeah.
Brandon: But really good relationships, really good people, and good decisions on my end because, you know.
Monica: Well, it starts with you and your attitude, so.
Brandon: Well, yeah. And that's the whole point of this, so I'm —
Monica: That's true. Yeah. That's true. So you should give yourself —
Brandon: We both have good attitudes.
Monica: — some credit. Yeah, exactly.
Brandon: So I think that wraps up today's episode. We will definitely have a networking episode coming out, because, like we said, the legal community is very — it's big, but it's small.
Monica: It's big, but it's small.
Brandon: It is. There's a ton of lawyers in this state, but —
Monica: Yeah.
Brandon: — from what I've found, the majority of them —
Monica: It's really crazy.
Brandon: — are willing to —
Monica: Yeah.
Brandon: — work with you, help you out. And the ones that aren't, the ones that suck —
Monica: Yeah.
Brandon: — and there are ones out there —
Monica: You can identify them easily, yeah.
Brandon: And not only can you identify them, but the rest of the community already tells you about them.
Monica: Yeah. That's true. And you know who to avoid, and you know what PI firms to stay away from —
Brandon: Yes.
Monica: — that are —
Brandon: That's true.
Monica: — that are shady. There's lawyers that are shady in all fields, but —
Brandon: Yeah.
Monica: I'm, in my mind, specifically thinking of shady ones.
Brandon: Yeah. When you said some, I was like, 'Oh.'
Monica: Alarming.
Brandon: There we go, the names.
Monica: So, no, I — it's like I said, I don't talk badly about other lawyers.
Brandon: Exactly.
Wrap-Up
Monica: So if you liked listening to the podcast episode, make sure you like, comment, and subscribe. We're on all platforms. comebackwithawarrant.pod. Leave us a five-star review and subscribe to our weekly newsletter.