Come Back With a Warrant
Episode 36: Family Law vs Criminal Law: Where Cases COLLIDE | Part 1
Hosted by Brandon Dinetz and Monica Ishak
Intro
Brandon: Welcome back to Come Back With a Warrant podcast. I'm Brandon Dinetz.
Monica: And I'm Monica Ishak.
Monica: Before we kick-start this week's episode, this is your reminder that this podcast is not legal advice. It's real, unfiltered, and for entertainment purposes only. If you need to speak with a lawyer, call one. Or better yet, call us.
Brandon: Call us.
Guest Introduction
Monica: Today's guest is Heather Greenhill Stohlman, a highly respected marital and family law attorney with 21 years of experience serving families right here in South Florida. Heather is a founding partner of the law offices of Greenhill Stohlman, a firm she established in 2011. The practice has built a strong reputation for ethics, integrity, and high-level advocacy, especially in complex family law matters involving strategic legal analysis and detailed financial issues. Her firm takes a truly comprehensive approach, often collaborating with professionals like therapists, psychologists, forensic accountants, financial advisors, and estate planning attorneys to ensure every client is supported from every angle.
Monica: Heather is also deeply involved in leadership and service throughout the legal community. She is a past president of the Palm Beach chapter of the Florida Association for Women Lawyers, serves on the 15th Judicial Circuit Grievance Committee, and is the executive vice president of the Jewish Lawyers Association of Palm Beach County. She also spent 10 years on the board of trustees for the Leukemia & Lymphoma Society, which speaks to her long-standing commitment to giving back. And on a personal note, Heather's husband, Matt, is a forensic accountant, their daughter is following in her footsteps as a gymnast, and her family is about to celebrate a wedding next month. We're so excited to have her with us today. Heather, welcome to the show.
Heather: Thanks for having me.
Brandon: Yeah, welcome. We're very excited to have you.
Heather: Thanks, me too.
Brandon: Hell of an intro, very nicely done.
Monica: Yes, thank you. I had a lot of great things to say.
Heather: I couldn't have said it better.
Monica: No, there was so much more too.
Episode
Monica: I guess we should get started by talking about how you got into family law before we get into the crossover of, you know, family and —
Brandon: And criminal.
Monica: I was gonna say immigration.
Brandon: Yeah. Why was I gonna say immigration?
Monica: Well, it's all right.
Brandon: That crosses over too.
Monica: But that's not on this episode. Yeah, so I think telling us maybe how you got into family law would be a great start.
Heather: Okay. So I was a baby lawyer, and I was practicing up in Orlando doing workers' compensation defense. And my father was a court reporter who had a lot of contacts in Palm Beach County. And there was a family law attorney who needed a new attorney, a baby lawyer. And so he said to my dad, if your daughter is half as good a lawyer as you are as a court reporter, I want her. So I came down for an interview, and I remember him quoting. He said, family law is the sexy side of law. It's all sex, drugs, and rock and roll. And I thought he was crazy and that there was no way that that could actually be true.
Heather: But very quickly into the practice, we started representing a lot of former golfers that were pros, NBA players, NFL players, and doing a lot of baby mama drama. And there was a lot of drugs and a lot of kids and a lot of crazy. So it was definitely a really cool experience at the start of my career. And I learned a lot of what to do and a lot of what not to do along the way. So starting the firm was easy.
Monica: Wow. So, well, you said you were in insurance defense before. So how long were you in insurance defense before family law?
Heather: It was only about two years.
Monica: Okay.
Heather: But I had clerked for personal injury attorneys for about three to five years prior to that. So my legal career actually started when I was 19, and I was clerking for a family law attorney down here. And so I actually had swore that I was never gonna get into it. I was never gonna get into family law. So I was 19, and my boss called me into his office, and he says, we're going to trial next week, or we're gonna settle. Go call the client. The list of personal property of what the husband wants is on my desk. Take it, call her, see what she wants. And I was scared to death, but I get on the phone and call her. By the way, I think the list of medications that she was on was, like, 19 to 20 different medications. She was so hopped on and completely addicted to so many things.
Heather: So, like, we really didn't wanna go to trial. And I'm going through the list, and one of the things was the rocking chair. There was a rocking chair in the house. I don't know where. I don't know what — nothing. And so I stopped her, and I was like, do you want the rocking chair? Your husband wants the rocking chair. Oh, I want the rocking chair, she starts off with. It was this raspy, raspy voice. And I'm sitting here going like, oh, okay. Well, my mom had made my rocking chair, so I thought this was, like, a really cool heirloom-type thing. Did you rock your kids to sleep in it? She's like, nope. I want it because my husband wants it. And right in that moment, I was like, I am never gonna do family law. I am not dividing the pots and the pans.
Heather: So when you get into the middle of a divorce and you're talking about the pots and the pans with me, I will literally tell you, go hire somebody else to deal with that kind of stuff, because I'm not dividing your china. Like, you pay me too much money per hour to deal with that kind of stuff. So getting back into family law, like, six years after that incident — I think it was, like, six years after that incident — I had to be dragged into it. But it was really sexy kind of law.
Monica: Yeah. For sure. It's funny that you say that, because even in criminal practice, sometimes I feel like the clients are trying — maybe not necessarily the clients, it could also be the alleged victim or the other party in the case is trying to use me to their benefit to get whatever it is. Like, I had a domestic once where there was a partition lawsuit going on with the property. And it was sisters. And so I know technically you deal with divorce and stuff, but it was a similar thing.
Heather: I see that.
Monica: And she filed a petition, and it was a domestic violence claim. And so it ended up that she was using that case to benefit herself personally, financially, with the house or whatever. And, like, you know, I was like, if I had represented the other sister, I would not even want to be a part of your scheme, you know what I mean? So I totally do not blame you for that.
Heather: Oh, yeah. And we deal with that, the partition aspect a lot too. So it's crazy. They'll bring in their parents, they'll bring in the trust, all kinds of stuff. So yeah, it's a lot in our circuit.
Monica: It, like, opens up a whole, like, can of worms once you get involved in family law because it's not just like divorce. It's, like, people that are closely connected, and they're breaking up. So it's just a whole thing.
Heather: A lot of hurt feelings and a lot of leverage.
Brandon: A lot of using different things and each other as leverage to get what you want and to resolve things. And I think there's definitely a huge overlap, especially when you have the criminal case going on and a case where there's a divorce or there's a paternity action or there's something going on. The parties are constantly trying to leverage the results of not only the criminal case but the family case at the same time.
Brandon: So you see that, and it's so funny. I always said I would never get involved in family law either, and the reason for me was because I feel like I lived it. Like I watched my parents get divorced, then I went to court as a kid with my parents, and I wanted no part of that at all. But in the criminal world, you get sucked into that because so many times when you're dealing with a domestic case, if they were married in that case, they're probably in the process of ending that marriage or —
Heather: Or very soon.
Brandon: Or very soon thereafter, right. So it is interesting how you still get sucked into it whether or not you actually wanna be doing it or not.
Heather: Yeah, exactly.
Monica: And so when it comes to family and criminal law, how often do you see these cases collide? Like, what percentage of your cases would you say you see that it actually collides?
Heather: Yeah. So it's actually not that often.
Monica: Okay.
Heather: I would say I've probably had about 10 to 15 over the years where at the same time there was a need to collaborate. A lot of the times you can see what's coming, and so like we were talking about before, sometimes there's a difference between having a domestic violence case in a family law matter versus having a domestic violence case in a criminal case. When there's one in a criminal case, you know it's really bad because there's misdemeanor or felony charges. But when it happens, it is usually really awful situations, and someone is always trying to either kick the other person out of the house or gain some leverage over the kids or try to get some money out of them somehow. And it's just really nasty.
Heather: So I mean, I try to tell my clients, like, my job is to take your emotion out of the situation and make this a business transaction, but you can't stop stupid.
Monica: No.
Heather: I don't know how many times I've said that.
Monica: Yeah, true. You cannot stop stupid.
Heather: And then people just don't even realize when they're being stupid.
Monica: No.
Heather: Right?
Monica: Well, they're not really regulating at that point. They're just kind of off the rails, I think. And you're just angry.
Heather: Right.
Monica: Yeah. So I mean, that's crazy 'cause — oh, sorry, I think I just hit you there. But you're saying only, like, 15 or 20 over the years, but it's almost like every single time I have a domestic case, which is almost every day —
Heather: Mm-hmm.
Monica: Yeah, no, it's frequent.
Heather: It's overlapped with some sort of, like, family law case, whether it's an injunction or a divorce or both.
Monica: So I would say —
Heather: Or a paternity action.
Monica: Yeah, or a paternity. So I would say like probably for us it's like more 80 or 90% of the times, whenever there's a domestic case, there's almost always a family case that's going on along with it.
Heather: That's so crazy. Yeah.
Heather: Do you know what I think the interesting dynamic that's happening now is the judges in family court are starting to recognize when someone's trying to one-up the other person.
Monica: I was gonna ask you about that.
Heather: Yeah, so they'll come in, and in family court you're not allowed to go to temporary relief. So you're not allowed to kick the other person out of the house. You're not allowed to get alimony. You're not allowed to get child support, like anything like that until, in Palm Beach County, until you've gone through mediation. And so if you wanna bypass that, let's figure out how to do it. Oh, let's cause a scene and get the other person kicked out of the house and create a domestic violence situation. And now all of a sudden you've pulled them out of the house, and oh, by the way, now I'm just gonna go file my petition for divorce and hope to God that the judge just believes me. These judges know.
Monica: Okay.
Heather: They know.
Monica: That's good.
Heather: And so I actually tell my clients, do not try to file a DV action at the same time as your divorce because you're just pissing off your judge. They know exactly what you're doing.
Brandon: So one thing I wanna touch upon. On the criminal side, we have a domestic violence court. So when someone is charged specifically with — let's talk about in misdemeanor context, domestic battery — there's the misdemeanor court for that. But in the family cases that you handle, there's a lot of allegations of abuse that go on between the parties, and that's where you see domestic violence in your more civil actions, is the allegation of abuse. And that's kind of where the judges are taking in their own discretion saying, okay, is this really what's going on? Or is there more to the story? On the criminal side, the judges really aren't looking at it like that. They're more looking at it like, oh, this is a domestic violence matter. There was a battery that occurred, and that's looking at it as this person is a criminal, not, oh, is the accuser just using this to —
Heather: Leverage.
Brandon: Game the system more as leverage. And it becomes really the responsibility of the prosecutors to ferret out the bullshit because if they don't, and the case makes its way into the domestic court, and the domestic judge has their say, they're not looking for that. They're not really trying to ascertain whether or not this is an illegitimate claim of violence. They're just seeing it as this person is accused. Is the state prosecuting? How far are they prosecuting? What do they want out of the case? So it's nice to hear on the one hand that if there are these allegations in family court, the judges are a little bit wise to is that really what's going on, whereas you don't really get that benefit in the criminal case.
Heather: No, not at all.
Monica: Well, I was gonna ask you as a part of that — how often do you see these allegations — I know, you know, you're the attorney, so you probably don't make your own fact-finding decision. But when you review the discovery and the evidence and stuff, you do kinda come to your own conclusions, obviously. So how often would you say you actually see there are true victims of domestic violence that are making the claim in the divorce action but are not bringing cases to court against their abuser?
Heather: A lot. So the unfortunate situation is, you know, like you've heard, battered woman syndrome. So a lot of times you'll see, it's usually the woman. But it's usually a woman who's been beaten and beaten and beaten and beaten down, right? Or you're dealing with, like, a narcissist. And unfortunately, a lot of the time it's, like, the woman who's the one who's beaten down. And so they will either emotionally abuse them, or they'll physically abuse them at home, and it takes 10, 11 times before they really figure it out. Part of the problem is they can't get out of the house. So what do you do? And so now you're starting a dissolution of marriage, but oh, by the way, you still have to live with that person that you're trying to escape from. Or you're dealing with a narcissist who's going to financially strap you. And then what do you do? You just can't get out.
Heather: So it's a matter of them finding their freedom or finding the help that they need to actually free themselves from that situation. So if I see it, it's usually really bad, and it's really far along. And, you know, look, it's one in three people might have a narcissistic trait in them, but how many of those people are actually a diagnosable narcissist? And of those people who are diagnosable, how many of them are gonna go to a therapist and say, diagnose me, please?
Monica: Right.
Heather: They're not. So those women who come to you, and they're like, hey, my husband's a narcissist, or, hey, my wife's a narcissist, you hear so much more of it than you can actually prove. And so, like, we were talking about this before — when someone comes in front of you and they say to you, hey, this is going on, what can I actually prove, right? So when the situation's being manipulated — and look, when it comes to the DV actions that I see, it's always a matter of what is the other side gonna say. So you throw yourself under the bus first, make it look like it's not so bad, whatever's going on at home. And then you just take it from there. It's just usually pretty bad.
Monica: That's a really good point because usually in these situations, oftentimes it's text messages, emails, pictures that are being used as evidence because it's communication exchanges between the parties. And so oftentimes you do have to kinda see where they're gonna go with it because most of the time our clients, even though we're claiming that they're — I don't wanna say innocent — I mean, in our situation, yes. Maybe in your situation, not as —
Heather: Not as black and white.
Monica: Yeah, I guess. It's more of a gray area.
Heather: Gray area, definitely.
Monica: Exactly. And so, like, if they did say a nasty text, you should acknowledge it before the other side has the opportunity to be like, well, in response to that, you said this. It's like, no, we are acknowledging that we lost, I guess, our shit in this moment. But that doesn't mean that I did X, Y, and Z. Or that doesn't mean that I did whatever they're claiming I did.
Heather: Yeah. And usually with those kinds of situations, it's your client coming in and they've lost their cool at some point.
Monica: Exactly.
Heather: And the other side has stayed so silent and so good about it, and so you get so frustrated 'cause they're coming and they're telling you, I didn't do it. And then you read their text messages, it's like F-bomb, F-bomb, F-bomb, and you're like, yeah, this is the evidence. You look like the bad guy. I don't know what to tell you here. But I can't make up the facts. The facts are the facts.
Monica: But to go back to what you said before — when we actually use the domestic violence allegations sometimes, when it's a criminal case, sometimes we still can't even use it because it's a character attack on someone who — like, the case got dismissed because they plead, and then it's done. So now I can't use those allegations. I just have to use it the same way that I would in a family case. But when there's kids involved, the statute actually has a factor for us to look at — did someone make an allegation of domestic violence, to what level it was, whether it was true or not, did something happen in front of the kids, things like that. So there's all these factors that we have to look at, and one of them specifically talks all about domestic violence, verbal abuse, psychological abuse, all that kind of stuff. So yeah, it is important regardless of whether there's actually a DV action going on or whether there actually is a crime that you can prove.
Heather: So family court, it's, it's like free for all.
Monica: Yeah. Sometimes I get calls, and it's, like, about financial abuse and emotional abuse. And, like, while I get it, I'm just like, that's not domestic. Like, I can't help you. That's not my arena. Obviously, if you wanna file anything that's in your family court, that's for a family lawyer. But I find that many people do feel like that is an actual — they feel injured, like, criminally injured as a result of those things, and so they call me because they want representation, like, to be a victim's attorney or whatever the case is. And a crime has not occurred in those situations. So I'm sure you probably in your cases see that way more frequently than I or Brandon ever see it in our cases. But it's always such a hard position to be in.
Brandon: We even had a client who was, I mean, he wasn't financially abusing, but he could've been —
Monica: Well, he was being financially taken advantage of in order to gain leverage over the criminal situation.
Brandon: Yeah. And when he stopped partaking in that exchange of money, the case went away. The case got dismissed suddenly the morning of trial. All of a sudden it went away because —
Monica: Shocker.
Brandon: Yeah. So when the leverage was gone and the money dried up, then the person was not as interested in pursuing the criminal action. So it went away.
Monica: Yeah. That just came to my mind 'cause I was thinking that you probably do see financial abuse often.
Heather: You do. The statute actually just changed a couple years ago, so you can file a harassment suit for financially being completely and utterly struck down, right? So imagine a stay-at-home mom who has no credit cards. She's given cash by her husband, and she has to go get groceries, or she has, like, a gas card, right? And then the husband turns off the gas card, and he turns off her ability to go get groceries and all these things. Like, what does she do? She's gotta get in front of a judge and get an injunction against him somehow so that she can get access to the bank accounts and access to the money. And so there's a couple caveats where it's a little interesting.
Brandon: That's a great thing for those situations because I have seen them. I have seen situations. And that's scary. That's a crippling feeling that someone else is completely in charge of your financial freedom, your overall safety and freedom, and they can just turn off — with it, if that was left unchecked and there was no ramifications, that would be horrible. What would somebody do in that situation other than initiate family proceedings? That's brutal to do that to somebody.
Heather: Or the opposite, because sometimes you have the stay-at-home mom who tries to abuse the system and say that she's financially strapped when in essence she really isn't, even though she's a stay-at-home mom and has no income of her own. So we had this case last year. My client was a husband, one of the nicest people that you've ever met. I absolutely love him. We are still in touch. He's, like, the coolest guy. So the wife wasn't a citizen, and the husband and all the kids were. And the wife said, I'm financially strapped, and she moved into a safe house, and she was scared that she was gonna get picked up by ICE, and turned it into, like, you've gotta give me alimony and child support, and you've gotta give me all this money, and tried to undo — it was a Jordanian divorce from 2009, and then they had gotten remarried when they got to the United States.
Heather: So she tried to undo the first divorce to say that they were really married for 18 years.
Monica: What?
Heather: I mean, she hired a lawyer in Jordan even though she had no money, like, I don't even know how she did this, but she hired a lawyer out in Jordan to try to undo the valid divorce in Jordan, and came to court and tried to say, you know, Your Honor, we're gonna amend our pleading to say that I'm entitled to alimony after 18 years. It's significantly longer than what was in — the second marriage was only seven months. So she was entitled to nothing. So she's leaving, and she's like, you have to pay me. I've been financially relying on you for all this time. It was just such a mess. I mean, she's still trying to use that system to basically extort him, but, I mean, he's too smart for that, and his lawyer was too smart for that. But man, it just sucked up part of the case. It was crazy.
Monica: Oh, my God. That is crazy. Like, the fact that people would be willing to try, like, go to such lengths. It's like my story that I was saying before we went live. The Maury story. Well, I guess now I'm mentioning it, I should say it. Sorry to make you guys listen to it twice.
Heather: No, tell us.
Monica: I was in a different jurisdiction handling an injunction hearing, and I was representing the respondent, which is considered the person who's responding to the complaint. And they were not married. They shared a child. And she previously challenged paternity against him, and so that was something that was established and proven that he was the father. And we go to court on this injunction hearing where she's claiming domestic violence against her and the child, and we are ready to fight the allegations when she just starts testifying that he's not the father, and she's waving around the original birth certificate that does not have his name on it, saying that he's not the dad. And I was like, what is going on? This was not a part of the program.
Monica: So we had to put everything on pause and then go get the certificate and prove it in court, but I was not expecting that. Like, what type of shit people are pulling. I can't believe people are actually going to court. And the judge did indicate at that point, and I think this is probably more clear in my case than yours, but she was making comments like, you know, if I find out that you're lying about this, you could be held in contempt. And then when the end of the hearing came, she never put her in contempt. But I was like, this is the reason why people keep doing this shit, because they're not being held in contempt when they do come to court and lie to the judge's face so blatantly. Like, about something so obvious.
Monica: And I find it happens more often in cases where domestic cases and cases where victims are more self-interested, because they have more to gain outside of just a criminal conviction or making sure this person goes to jail. It's usually financial or there's children involved, which I think opens up the next topic.
Children, DCF, and Juvenile Court
Monica: Oftentimes you see these situations not only just involving two parties, like, husband and wife, but also involved with children. So that's something that I think there's a crossover also we talked about with juvenile, which is a whole other thing. Over the span of 20 years of practice — first, I would wanna know, do you actually see how this affects the children?
Heather: Yes, all the time.
Monica: How do you actually see that? Is it because you're in court or how does that —
Heather: I mean, it's horrible. A lot of the time, you know, I'll recommend that my clients get the kids into therapy. And so then you're seeing the changes in the kids, or they're telling you certain buzzwords that you're like, oh my God, that's your child acting out, and you don't even know it. Or you're not gonna acknowledge that you just caused that. So part of the problem is, like, parents don't even know how to talk about things around their kids, or they don't recognize, like, you should not be talking about your litigation around these children.
Heather: Oh, my goodness. It's just insane. I mean, I've had so many cases like that where the kids come back, and you've got, like, a 13- and a 15-year-old kid, and they're reporting back to the other side, hey, by the way, mom or dad had all of your pleadings out on the kitchen table, 'cause they're getting ready to go to a hearing or something. And the kids, I mean, in the middle of the night, they come out, and they read everything. So you're reading all of your dirty allegations that you've gotta make, right? So especially in a modification case where I'm trying to say, hey, by the way, we need to change time-sharing or change, you know, whatever else is going on, and the kids read what's actually happening, that's the worst. Or they experience it. But, like, when it's juvenile, it's really just the bad of the bad.
Monica: What do you mean by that?
Heather: So, okay, I'll tell you an example, 'cause it's always easier by example, right?
Monica: Sure.
Heather: So I had this case, and I was — right before I had my daughter, so it was super stressful for me, like, walking around very, very pregnant around the courthouse. So the facts were this. There were two kids. The parties had been divorced. My client, she worked in a school. And the dad — I don't even remember what he did, but he was a former vet, and he had PTSD. And he was hopped up on, I think it was heroin. And you couldn't prove it, except for the kids saying, like, well, when we get in daddy's car, he makes us cover our eyes, and then we smell a really bad smell, and he rolls down the windows. Or, when we go to this house, he makes us shut our eyes and get on the floor, and we're not allowed to say anything. So you know, like, dad's going to a drug deal, and then dad's smoking heroin in the car with the kids there, and then you go home.
Heather: And then dad had gotten into so many fights with the kids. He'd come screaming down the hallway. Kids go, like, screaming for their teachers down the hallway. The kids would start throwing up in the middle of the aftercare room, just saying like, I can't go with him. Don't make me go with him. If you make me go with him, I'm gonna kill myself. And then so here's what happened. So we were already involved in the family law case. We were doing a modification of time-sharing. We had a guardian ad litem appointed. Guardian ad litem gets involved, and there's, like, 17 witnesses just on my side already.
Monica: Wow.
Heather: And then the kid, who I wanna say was 15 at the time, got Baker Acted for saying, if you make me go with dad today, I'm going to kill myself, and I'm not kidding. So they Baker Act this little kid. I have never in my life seen this before, like, someone, a kid gets Baker Acted for just saying like, please help me. So now the kid's in Baker Act. Because a child gets Baker Acted, then DCF gets involved. So that was something else we were gonna talk about, like, the crossover with DCF. DCF comes, like, lickety-split. They're involved. They're in JFK North, like, in the hospital as this poor child is trying to get the hell out. Being in a psych ward at that age when you really don't have a psychological problem, it is traumatizing.
Monica: Yeah.
Heather: It is awful. So now you're in juvenile court. So now the family case gets moved down to juvenile court, and there's a potential crime against dad because he's trafficking heroin with his kids in the car. And so now you've basically got all three courts going on at the exact same time. And where does it all get muddled up, but all in juvenile court. So you walk in, and there's a juvenile judge. There's the DCF agent with the state attorney. Then there's a guardian ad litem that gets appointed by the DCF, so by the state. And then the guardian ad litem has to have their attorney. And then I'm sitting in the courtroom in the back with my client with our own guardian ad litem, and then dad's up there with his lawyer.
Heather: And by the way, in juvenile court in Palm Beach County, all the kids are parties to the case. So now the kids all have to be there. It was such cattle call. I mean, you just can't even imagine how many lawyers and clients and everyone are sitting around these tables, and it is so bad.
Heather: So the good thing about it is that the judge, when they talk to the kids, they'll take 'em in the back. They'll give 'em a lollipop, or give 'em, like, a little toy or something. And usually the juvenile judges'll have a basket on their table to entice the kids so that they don't feel scared of the man in the black robe or the woman in the black robe. And they go in the back, and they talk, but everything's videotaped. So they're still on guard, 'cause I don't really wanna tell you everything that's going on because, oh, by the way, then my dad will hear that I'm complaining about the fact that — dad said to this kid, I think the kid was, like, seven at the time. Dad said to the kid on his birthday, he went out and got an emoji cake, and it was a shit emoji. So he gives him a shit cake. And he goes, here's a shit cake for a shithead like you. How horrible is that? And then he tells the kid that he's fat, and the only reason why you can't play football right is because you're fat. But I'm gonna go give you a shithead cake. I mean, the guy is just totally —
Monica: Yeah, he's an asshole.
Heather: He's a total asshole. So I end up saying like, thank God these kids got away from dad, and they were basically sheltered away from him. And in the end, dad committed suicide.
Monica: Oh my gosh.
Heather: And so now the kids have to deal with the fact that dad committed suicide after being completely hopped up on heroin and serving our country, and so he was a vet. Like, when you just throw all the things in the pot, that was that kind of case.
Brandon: And where was mom in this?
Heather: I mean, mom had done nothing wrong. So mom and I were just sitting back saying like, okay, we have to observe and watch what's going on, and we'll support you guys and get the kids to the therapy appointments and get the kids to all the testing and all the things. But when you're in that kind of situation, one of the things that happens is DCF immediately brings on CPT, so child protection team, and they have to go through all kinds of, like, psych evals and analyses. And, I mean, it's even worse when you're dealing with, like, a sexual abuse type situation. So basically, could you imagine being a mom making an allegation of, dad sexually abused my 12-year-old child, right? That 12-year-old has never seen nor knows what an OB-GYN is, right? That 12-year-old, however, is about to meet CPT —
Monica: Yeah.
Heather: In a room with stirrups on the table, and have to completely be evaluated as if an OB-GYN comes into that room, and everything is videotaped. And your mom on the other side of that wall with a glass partition, and you can't help your kid. You can't explain anything to your kid. You can't do anything. But you thought you were helping your kid by making those allegations.
Brandon: I mean, yeah.
Heather: You have no idea. That's why you have to talk to your lawyer first, because once you get that, like, juvenile, DCF, CPT, all the things involved, and all the crossover for the kids, you don't even have to hear it from the kids. And I 99.9% of the times won't talk to the kids unless it's a juvenile case. But when you do talk to the children, you can tell immediately what's going on and how bad it is at home, and who's creating it. So yeah, sorry.
Brandon: No, that was a lot of really good information.
Monica: When it comes to situations like that — and I feel like that was, like, the ideal situation you used to explain all the crossovers. When it comes to those situations, do you find that there is, like, an actual — because the legal standard is the best interest of the child, right? So do you actually find that there is a way to bring everybody together and do what's in the best interest of the child in those situations?
Heather: Okay, so the standard — it's so funny, though, 'cause the standard is actually a little different between juvenile court and family court. Because the goal in juvenile court is reunification.
Monica: Right.
Heather: Their job is, within nine months, to reunify that family, but sometimes that's not what's in the child's best interest. And so they can give you a plan and say, if you do all these things, then you can reunify, but that might not be what's best for the kid. So say the abuser follows every single step, which is usually, like, nine or 10 things. So they've gotta get drug tested, and they've gotta go to anger management, and they've gotta go to addiction therapies and all kinds of things, and then they've gotta go to therapy with their kids. You just sit there and go through the motions and do all these things, and now all of a sudden the DCF agent is telling you, yeah, you can have your kids back now. Is that what's best for the kids? No, because reunification under family court is way different.
Heather: So it just takes a whole lot longer, and we get psychological experts involved. So in family court, we will usually try to hire a forensic psychologist. And that forensic psychologist is, like, a thousand times better than a normal psych, right? So they're doing all the mandatory testing, but they're doing it under the guise of, like, they can talk to all the collateral witnesses, and they can put together a game plan for you that says, if you want this kid to be back with Dad, these are your safety goal plans. And this kid has to be able to express to you and tell you what's going on and how to get out of that situation, if the child is communicable. Communicable, is that a word? Is that a term you can —
Monica: Communicable. They can communicate, yeah.
Heather: Yeah, yeah. I mean, so if you've got a four-year-old, that four-year-old can't communicate. But then you've got the kid in play therapy, and so they're going into the therapist's office, and they're playing with the sand, and they're playing with the dolls, and they're trying to explain, like, this is where Daddy touches me, or this is where my nanny touches me, like, all that kind of stuff on a doll. Try to get a four-year-old to talk like that.
Monica: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Heather: I mean, I can tell you my daughter is seven, and it would be hard.
Monica: Yeah.
Heather: So it's crazy. The stuff that I see is crazy.
Monica: That's interesting how they try to approach talking to children in family court. I've seen it a couple of times — family court and juvenile, where the kids have had to be called to the witness stand. So one of the worst cases that I had — he hired me the first month that I started my company.
Heather: Oosh.
Monica: Okay, so I'm telling you, I had no support staff.
Heather: This is, like, your first client.
Monica: Right. And it was so bad, and it lasted for, like, three or four years because it was so bad in so many different instances. I mean, I was working out of a nine-by-nine office. I had no support staff. I literally started my company with nothing. I just had no clients. So he's one of my first ones coming in the door. And this is dad, who is former husband, and mom — I think her diagnosis was bipolar, manic, schizophrenic. I mean, like, all the things. Right? So, like, all the diagnoses all at one time. She was living with her niece, and her niece woke up, and mom was standing over her with a butcher's knife —
Heather: Oh.
Monica: And was gonna kill her. And the niece was like, what are you doing? And she goes, MeeMaw — which is what they call their grandma — MeeMaw told me to do it. MeeMaw was dead. Okay, so now we've got hallucination on top of all the other things, right? So then mom is starting to do all these things with the kids, throwing their phone against the wall so that they can't call Dad. And, I mean, literally driving down I-95 and then stopping in the middle of the road and throwing pennies over the wall — because MeeMaw told her to do it. And then going into Taco Bell and getting, I don't know, a pizza or something. And then they stopped at McDonald's literally five minutes later because we didn't have enough food, so we left the pizza there, and then we took this food. I mean, it was just awful.
Monica: So I filed in family court to modify the situation, and then when this driving down 95 happened, the therapist caught wind of it. Therapist, mandatory reporter. Mandatory reporter calls it in. DCF gets involved. So then what happens? Now you're in juvenile court, so the entire case gets moved down to juvenile court. So these kids had to testify against their mother and explain everything that was going on. And so try preparing two kids who — I think they were, like, fifth and seventh grade at the time, and they were so scared shitless. Like, I just remember the DCF attorney and myself preparing these kids for, you're gonna have to testify, and these are all the things that you're gonna be asked. And yes, mom can hear you, but don't hold back because the judge needs to hear the truth. It's really important. So now you're explaining to two children the importance of telling the truth and all these things, right?
Monica: So then we go through that whole thing. Mom loses her time-sharing for a certain period of time. She was given one of those case plans where you have to do X, Y, and Z to reunify. Mom does nothing. Okay. So then DCF closes the case, and then it gets kicked back up to family court. Well, so the family court judge has to have their own trial on all the same issues that these kids just went through, and then the kids have to testify and all the things. So it was years' worth of going back and forth and back and forth, and it started with — dad actually had less time-sharing than mom.
Heather: Oh my goodness.
Monica: Dad — and then, like, the first round was dad gets 50/50 time-sharing back in the day before we had this presumption of equal time-sharing. And then when the second bullshit happened, then dad ended up with 100% time-sharing, and then mom was allowed to have supervised time-sharing for a period of time. Let me tell you something. So, like, as awful as those situations are, when the daughter graduated from high school, she was allowed to invite 10 people to see her graduate, and I was one of the people that she invited to go.
Heather: That's really sweet.
Monica: Didn't even invite her mother.
Heather: Aw.
Monica: Okay. And then a couple months ago, I'm sitting there having drinks with my husband. And as we're leaving, this kid comes running out, and it was the son. So the daughter now had gotten to the daughter's high school graduation, and then the son is running after me, and he's like, oh my God, you saved my life. I don't know where I would be without you, but I'm about to get married tomorrow. Would you come inside and meet my wife?
Heather: That's so cool.
Monica: It was amazing.
Brandon: Wow, that's so sweet.
Monica: So, like, the worst case that I ever had — and then you, it turns into something so amazing like that.
Heather: Yeah. Like, came back to you.
Brandon: That's awesome. You really did.
Brandon's Personal Story
Brandon: You probably don't interact with the children enough that you help and make such a big impact on. I know, you know, just hearing some of the stories, it makes me almost uncomfortable because I relate to a good amount of what you're talking about. In my — you know, my parents were — and obviously I never really get into this shit with anybody, but, you know, why not in front of a few hundred closest friends? My parents initially, when we were kids, my parents were divorced. We were with my mom for the majority of the time, and I had very little to no relationship with my dad at all. And then my mom — we were living in New Jersey at the time. My mom wanted to move to Florida, and the courts got involved and basically were like, well, they have no relationship with the father. You can't just kinda do this. And overnight, I went from not speaking to my dad for, like, two years to now I'm living with him full time.
Heather: Oh, wow.
Brandon: And I wound up learning a lot about things that I didn't understand and didn't realize as a kid, and there was a lot. My mom struggled with addiction and mental health issues, and we, you know, my sister and I wound up living with my dad, and I lived with my dad through high school and college and everything. And my relationship with my mom is not very good to this day, but I remember the battles that they would be fighting. And I remember hearing from the court and being told basically that my sister and I, to an extent, were brainwashed against my dad for years. And we were told all of these things that had happened that didn't happen and weren't happening and just weren't true, and it kind of pushed things the other way and kind of hurt the relationship with my mom.
Brandon: But the bottom line was, if the courts didn't get involved and didn't do what they did, I have no idea what would've happened to my sister and I. I don't think we would've been, you know, either one of us be as successful as we are today without that happening. And the lawyers and the courts getting involved, I for sure attribute to saving us also. I think that really is what happens.
Brandon: And that work is so different than even what we do because while we may help somebody in a situation and either get them out of the situation or make it better and then they move on from it, we're not setting children up for the rest of their lives to be in a much better position than they currently are. And, you know, when you're a kid, you really don't know and you don't understand a lot of what's going on. You just see, you know, the parents are fighting, and you just hear one side of the story —
Heather: Mm-hmm.
Brandon: Mostly. Whichever parent you're with, you hear, and you get that kind of idea that the other parent is the enemy, and you are put in the middle, and it's an awful, awful position to be in. And it makes you appreciate the court system, obviously, but also healthy relationships. And I think growing up and being now an adult and being in a healthy relationship with a wife who I adore and have my own son — you learn so much of what not to do and what not to be and what not to become by living through that situation, but it's fucking torture. And it's not enjoyable to be the kids in that situation, but the impact, the long-lasting impact that it has is very much that, like, that little boy that ran up to you said. Like, you really did save their lives. You have no idea what could've happened and the story they wouldn't have and the life they wouldn't get to lead if it were not for what you did. So it's a tremendous — I have all love for family attorneys, even though I do not aspire to be one. I have nothing but love for what you guys do because when you do it right and you help kids out, it's a game changer.
Monica: Yeah. Well, it's interesting that you both are saying that, 'cause for me, the perspective I have as, like, an outsider practicing — kind of just, like, not even really fully practicing in family law, obviously, but just the extent that I do get involved with the domestic cases or the injunctions — I always have the mindset, usually have the mindset of, the court should stay out of it. Like, court should stay out of the house. Do not get involved. You know, like, that's not their place. I think there is a point where they should get involved, but I just don't think that it should automatically always be a thing. And so when it comes to certain situations, I guess because I've never had that exposure, any sort of exposure like that where I would see the role the attorney plays in the children's lives, and that's really kind of, like, a full circle moment. Especially 'cause you were saying, like, you probably shouldn't have taken that case.
Heather: No, I killed it.
Monica: Yeah. Absolutely. But it dragged out for so long, and then it came back in such an appreciative way, and that's, like, honestly, as an attorney, sometimes that's all I want is just a thank you. You know, like, you really, like, fought for me. Thank you so much. And, like, hearing that years later, like, that's amazing. And then to also, like, for you, Brandon, like, going through something like that and seeing it just now as an attorney, you do see kind of parts of that sometimes.
Brandon: I see it all the time. I have clients that'll tell me that they are accused of something, and they've got kids, and the kids are involved somehow. I mean, what happens a lot with me is — and I think one thing that makes me good at the job is I'm always able to compartmentalize things, and I do a good job of separating the things out and not trying to relate to their situations in a sense of finding it, like, oh, I know what your kid's going through because I went through that. Like, I do my best to keep all of that separate because I think if I let things get convoluted and muddied, I wouldn't be able to do my job effectively.
Monica: Yeah.
Brandon: But it gives me a unique insight, and when I hear my clients tell me, you know, my spouse did this in front of my kid, it's like, dude, you're — stop. Like, you're fucking up your kid, and you really could be taking this opportunity. Like, get out of the relationship that you're in with your spouse. That's fine. But don't fuck up your kid in the process. And there are ways to avoid doing that before lawyers have to get involved, but obviously lawyers do get involved, and they can make things a lot better.
Monica: Yeah. It's just unfortunate that that's just the go-to is the kid. Like, what do I have in common with this person? I'm gonna go for the kid, and they don't really hesitate, it seems like. People don't really hesitate when it comes to using the kids as leverage.
Heather: I think at first they don't even realize that they're doing it, and that's the unfortunate situation.
Monica: What?
Heather: Yeah.
Brandon: So angry at the other person.
Heather: Yeah, they're just so angry at the other person that they don't hold back. There's no, like, therapeutic intervention. You can't force therapy on someone. It's like telling someone that they're an alcoholic. You can't be an alcoholic until you're ready to admit that you're an alcoholic, right? So you can't tell some verbally abusive person that they're verbally abusive until they're willing to admit it, so they'll just keep doing it and doing it and doing it. And unfortunately, you can't get out of your own way when you're in that kind of situation. So, I mean, it's hard.
Crossover Cases & Going to Jail
Heather: But, I mean, we deal with a lot of people who won't actually acknowledge that they've done anything wrong. So here's a crossover for you.
Monica: We get that too. All the time. They never acknowledge —
Brandon: They're always right.
Heather: Right. So, and you and I were talking about this the other day. So I had a case where grandparents hired me. Grandparents were like, you've gotta save these kids because mom's gonna move away. And I basically said to them from the outset, like, that's never gonna happen. I can't save your kids from mom being able to do it, 'cause grandparents have no rights in Florida basically. So dad gets accused of 200-something counts of child pornography that he had downloaded, and so of course it's in federal court. And it's in federal court because, you know, once you're on the internet, like, you never know where it came from.
Brandon: Yep, yep.
Heather: So SWAT comes into the house. Wife's there, kids are there. It's like 5:00 in the morning. Everybody saw this whole situation, and dad gets carted off to jail. So what happens in the end is we ended up in a full-blown trial, and I remember saying to opposing counsel, who's a friend of mine, thank God. Most of the family attorneys, we actually get along. But I said to her, 'cause we had had a terrible case before that where there was, like, alcoholism and DCF and all the things involved too, and then here comes this case, and it's criminal law and all the things involved again.
Monica: Sex, drugs, and rock and roll.
Heather: Right, totally. Sex, drugs, and rock and roll.
Monica: Sure, right, yeah.
Heather: And so, like, the first case, I beat her, and in this case I walked in and I was like, here's your payback. You're gonna win. Like, I know I'm losing. I just can't stop at this point. But man, I remember, like, I don't know how you guys do it because —
Brandon: Oh my God.
Heather: I remember having to go down to the federal courthouse to see if we could settle a couple of the issues, and being told by the federal attorney for my client, wear a sports bra because you're not allowed to wear metal in your bra. I think he was like, don't put your hair up, but don't put makeup on either, and don't wear high heels. Make sure you're in sneakers, and you're not allowed to have paper clips and all the things. And, like, you don't even realize how much you guys go through —
Monica: Yeah. Just to go to a jail visit.
Heather: Just to go to jail. Right, like, that's scary as shit for a family law attorney. I don't wanna do that. So no, I'm hiring you guys. Like, if my client goes to jail, you're going for me.
Monica: Yeah, that's why I do it.
Brandon: It's not — for me personally, and maybe Monica is different —
Monica: This is exactly what I said.
Brandon: It is not thrilling for me either to be going. The first time I walked into jail and I heard the door behind me, when the door behind me locked —
Monica: Yeah.
Heather: You're like, I can't get out.
Brandon: The first time, I'll never forget that fucking sound. When I heard that door to the jail lock and I realized now I'm not free to go unless somebody lets me out, I was like, uh, maybe this is the wrong career for me. Maybe this is not what I'm supposed to be doing.
Heather: Right.
Brandon: Oh, man, I'll never, ever forget that sound, that lock behind you when the sliding door goes and locks for the first time, and you're like, okay. All right, now this is really real.
Monica: Yeah. Once Heather told me that, I was like, well, I mean, I don't blame you, 'cause as a criminal lawyer, I don't enjoy going to jail either, so.
Heather: No, it's not.
Monica: It's not my number one place to go.
Heather: It's not fun. I love that they have the video jail visits, 'cause I see my clients much more frequently if they're in custody. Like, I have somebody in custody now, and he was trying to call me the other day. It wasn't going through, and I just, like, went on my computer, and within 20 minutes pulled him up face to face and was like, this is perfect. This is as much as I need to do.
Monica: Yeah. I go in there to get releases and stuff signed sometimes, and go over discovery. That's fun.
Heather: Yeah.
Brandon: That's a bright spot if I have to go in there.
Monica: If I have to go in there to, like, watch a video or something, that's different.
Heather: Yeah. But no, it's so weird. I had to go in once right before trial because the mom was self-representing herself, and we're going in for trial, and I'm changing custody from dad, who lived in Pennsylvania. Mom had the kid down here. Mom got arrested for doing a drug deal with — I think it was the aunt of the kid. Mom had custody of the kid. Kid's not going to school, so now there's, like, truancy going on. And when I tell you it's all the things, it's all the things. So there's truancy case against mom. Then mom gets arrested for dealing cocaine within 500 feet of a school.
Monica: Oh, no.
Heather: Kid wasn't even at school that day, so mom goes to jail.
Monica: At least mom was — kid wasn't at school that day.
Heather: Okay, right. And then we had to go to trial, so in order to have mom released, I had to file a motion, and then mom had to sign off on it. I don't even remember the entire proceeding, and thank God I probably blocked it out of my mind. But I had to go to jail to get her to sign this document to agree to come to court somehow. And so I called up one of my criminal defense attorney friends, and I'm like, dude, there's no way I'm going to jail by myself. You have to come with me. And so I made him escort me all the way into the jail, and I remember walking down those hallways like you. Like, they shut the door behind you, and you're like, oh, shit, I am not free anymore. But at the same time, I was like, holy shit, I would've gotten lost in here. And I would never have gotten out.
Heather: Because nobody talks about how they just let you go into the jail, and then they're like, go find cell block —
Brandon: There's no escort.
Heather: Go into the abyss.
Brandon: Right. There's no, like, you're waiting for somebody with, like, a badge and a gun to take you through. No, no. They just go, okay, and it's, like, a maze. The Palm Beach County Jail is massive.
Heather: Yeah.
Brandon: And you walk in there — oh, you're going to South 10 Bravo. You know where you're going? All right, cool. And, like an idiot, I'm just nodding, and I'm like, uh-huh. Because I don't wanna make people think, like, I don't know what I'm doing. And I'm saying, yeah, uh-huh, I know exactly where I'm going. And they lock it, and it's, like, all right.
Brandon: And I think to myself that the people that sit in the tower and are watching the videos of me in the hallway, like, walking very, very slowly. Like, I hear, like, a loud noise. Like, I'm just, like, looking both ways. I'm checking for, like, doors that are unlocked, and there's nobody.
Heather: On top. There was nobody there. And then you finally end up somewhere, and then somebody's like, oh, yeah, you went the wrong way. And you're like, then they tell you where you have to go.
Monica: That's Brandon's jail experience every time.
Brandon: Yeah, no. That was me when I first started, for sure. And then at the PD's office, I went enough that I figured out where I was going, so. I'd have clients in the medical unit, and I'd have to go and make my way there. And it's like — yeah, it's not fun. It's like you have to take this stairwell and this elevator, but not that elevator. And don't go to that floor, but go up to this floor. And then you're just, like, walking around and you're like, they have to know that I don't belong here. There must be somebody watching in a tower, watching the surveillance of me, like, look at this guy. He doesn't belong here. Like, he's an idiot. But yeah, that was me too. No idea where I was. Just scared to death. It's crazy.
DCF and Guardian ad Litem
Monica: Well, I actually was surprised when I first got into domestic violence division as a public defender. Because DCF was getting involved for the first time in my criminal cases, and I was like, I didn't know DCF touches criminal cases, 'cause I had been doing criminal defense, I mean, not for the longest time, for, like, a year or something, and I hadn't seen the crossover. And so since you mentioned the DCF came into that situation — I notice that they get involved very quickly, but once they're involved, they take their sweet time to produce a report.
Heather: Yes. Yeah, they do. Oh my God.
Monica: I'm like, what was so urgent then for you to get involved? Like, why are we —
Heather: They're so overworked and unfortunately underpaid that, I mean, you can call them up and, first of all, they'll tell you that they can't talk to you. And then when you sweeten them up a little bit, maybe they'll tell you a couple things that are going on. But man, like, the amount of cases that they have and the amount of times that they can actually do some, like, really good work is so minimal, so they're, like, there's some bitter people that work in that area.
Monica: Yeah.
Heather: And I feel bad for them because it's not their fault. It's not their fault at all. But some of the times, like, you get those cases and you're just like, could you please shelter these children? Please just shelter the children right now. And then they take some time. No, let's put the kids with the other parent. Okay, well, now you've basically started a family law case without necessarily starting a family law case. And then I'm stuck in this situation where the parent comes to you and they say, you have to file a modification case because, oh, by the way, I've got this final judgment over here. So, like, how would you deal with this? You have a final judgment that says parents are entitled to equal time-sharing. Then DCF comes in and says, don't release those kids.
Monica: Yeah, that's the problem. Because we're handling competing orders, and then we have this criminal case.
Heather: That's what does happen to us. Not even an order. DCF just comes in before they file it, and they tell you, you're not allowed to give the kids over to the other side. So then the parent comes in to talk to you, and they tell you, like, this is the situation that's going on. What do you as the lawyer tell your client to do? Well, you've got DCF on the one side telling you you're not allowed to do something, and then you've got the ethics rules on the other side telling you you are not allowed to advise your client to violate a court order.
Brandon: Right.
Heather: So you've gotta file something immediately in the family law section. Because otherwise, like, you're just telling your client to violate a DCF piece of paper. 'Cause that's basically what it is. It's a piece of paper. Versus violate a final judgment and try to say, like, well, no, Your Honor, I didn't willfully and wantonly disregard that court order. I was listening to DCF.
Monica: Right.
Heather: Because what do you do in that situation?
Brandon: Well, yeah, David, you're gonna tell me no. DCF makes a recommendation. They do an investigation. They produce this report, and this report is a recommendation to the judge in anticipation that the order will come to follow. So in the end, I mean, it is something that you need to address in court regardless, but —
Heather: But if DCF doesn't open that case and then the kids technically get sheltered, I had that happen, like, a year or two ago, where the kids get taken away from mom and they're sitting with dad because mom's got a whole slew of other issues going on. But then you've got — it was supposed to be, like, 90 days, turned into, like, 100-something days that the kids are only with one parent, and I've got this pending petition for modification going on at the same time. While I technically don't have an order telling me I'm allowed to do this, so we're just gonna follow DCF recommendation, and oh, by the way, we're supposed to be in front of the judge on a hearing for something else in, like, two weeks. And the judge is gonna be pissed off at both sides because my client's intentionally violating the court order whilst at the same time trying to pursue this case, and you can't do anything because DCF is in charge. It's, ugh, so not fair.
Monica: So when it comes to DCF and guardian ad litem, what is the difference in their roles in the case?
Heather: Oh, good question. Okay. DCF represents the state. So when DCF actually gets involved, your children are basically wards of the state, and DCF is saying, I have a vested interest in your children by virtue of, like, public policy to make sure that these kids are taken care of. A guardian ad litem in a family law case, their job is to be the next best friend of the kids. So they're interviewing the children and seeing what is necessary for those children, but they're representing the best interests of the children. They're not representing what the children want. So then there's a difference between a guardian ad litem doing what is in the best interest of the kids, even though they're acting like the best friend of the kid, and then there's an attorney ad litem who technically is supposed to do what the kids want.
Monica: Okay. Okay, so there's, like, a bunch of different things going on. Kids oftentimes don't know what they want, though, given a lot of factors.
Heather: How could they?
Monica: Whether or not the parent — they may not be — if they're not told the whole story and they don't know everything that's going on and they're only hearing one side from one parent, then they want, oh, I wanna stay with mom, or I wanna stay with dad, and they don't know actually what's going on. I totally understand advocating more for what's actually in their best interest, whether or not they want it.
Heather: Right. Yeah. And then in our statute, it says that the kid's desires are supposed to be taken into consideration, and then how do you actually interpret that? Well, if you're in juvenile court, you're a party to the case if you're a child. Right? So your desires get taken into consideration automatically. If you're in family court, that child is probably never gonna testify. Like, the amount of times that a child testifies is so de minimis. Because while the child's interests and desires are supposed to be taken into account, at what age is the child of sufficient age, intelligence, and experience that they understand the magnitude of them testifying for or against their parent, right?
Heather: So the case law basically says somewhere around 15. So when you tell a parent that when they come in to talk to you, you're like, dude, your kids aren't testifying. Like, I don't care what you say. Because even if it's 15, that judge is going to exhaust all other avenues before they're gonna talk to your kid. They're gonna make you come into court and bring the guardian ad litem, the social investigator, the guidance counselor from school, their piano teacher, their lacrosse coach, all the things — the best friend's parents, all of those collateral witnesses. You could have 12, 15 collateral witnesses before that kid is ever gonna see the inside of a —
Monica: Thank God.
Heather: Thank God.
Brandon: Right? 'Cause, like, that kid shouldn't be put in that situation.
Brandon: How often is competency raised against a child's ability to testify in family court? Because when I'm a defense attorney in criminal court, any time the state wants to list a child witness, I'm raising competency. The indicators are if they know the difference between a truth and a lie, and all those things. There are factors to consider. So it isn't necessarily a set age, and it's kind of custom to the child.
Heather: Mm-hmm.
Brandon: How often do you see that happening, or is it an issue in the family law case?
Heather: So it's not necessarily competency. So our statute says age, skill, experience, basically. And so what the judge would end up doing in that situation, if they're gonna talk to the kid, is they're gonna take them in the back, and they're gonna have a conversation, 'cause it feels like a conversation. We usually write up our own questions, but the judge knows what to say. And they'll ask them questions like, so what would happen if you told a lie at school? And, like, so they're gauging their understanding of what's going on, and, so do you have any understanding of what's gonna happen here if you tell me a lie about your mommy? And, you know, what's gonna happen to you when you go home? What do you think is gonna happen when you go home? And then they're gauging whether or not they're actually — the veracity of that child, more so. So are they telling you the truth? More so than, like, actual competency.
Heather: Now, granted, if you're dealing with, like, a four-year-old kid, like, they're probably not gonna talk to that four-year-old kid. They're gonna appoint people to investigate that situation, and then hear from those experts before they hear from a four-year-old in court.
Brandon: No, I meant competency in the terms of being able to testify, to put themselves in the position, not the legal term competency.
Heather: Oh, yeah.
Brandon: But yeah, sorry, I should have clarified that.
Heather: No, it's usually around 15 or higher. But honestly, at that point, like, can you really control a 15-year-old?
Monica: No.
Heather: They're off the rails at that point if they wanna be, you know? They got a car. They're basically like, we're driving. We're in charge. Like, you can't tell me where to go and what to do.
Monica: Yeah. Oh my gosh.
Emergencies & Rapid Fire
Monica: I have, there's so much more to talk about, but we're almost out of time, so I don't know — I have one more question, but I don't know if —
Heather: Go. Ask it.
Monica: Okay. How often — 'cause this has happened a couple times with me in situations representing people in criminal cases, where they need an emergency motion filed in family court.
Heather: Ugh. Yes.
Monica: And every time, I'm contacting the family lawyer, and I'm like, this is an emergency. They're like, no, it's not. And I'm like, okay. Like, you would know. Gotta go, bye. So I find that oftentimes that's, like, an issue between the client and the family lawyer. So the situation I was dealing with in that case was the other parent was gonna take the kid and leave the state. So I was thinking that was an emergency.
Heather: Well, that's an emergency. So they said no?
Monica: They were like, it's not an emergency. So I just, okay.
Heather: Were they coming back?
Monica: I don't think there was any proof or anything to support that they were coming back.
Heather: Okay.
Monica: But —
Heather: Was there a prior court order? Like, in the family court?
Monica: Yes.
Heather: There should have been. So that's an emergency, right?
Monica: Okay. I don't know. I don't know who you talked to.
Heather: So you had an actual emergency.
Monica: Listen, it wasn't a referral. It was somebody they had already. So it wasn't something — like, I felt like I was kinda out of my place. I was just kind of doing them a favor by giving them a call and being like, hey, this is the situation. But how often do you find that that happens? That they try?
Heather: So everyone thinks everything is an emergency to them, which is totally understandable, and I have to respect that and appreciate that my clients' lives are under trauma. Right? So everything's an emergency. But in Palm Beach County, we have administrative order that defines what an emergency is.
Monica: Oh, nice.
Heather: And so we refer back to the admin order that says basically dead, dying, or bleeding. Right? So it's like if you're in immediate fear of bodily harm to oneself or death, or a child is about to be removed from the jurisdiction without the permission of the other or ex-spouse. And so those two things will qualify for an emergency. Otherwise, you're filing this hot topic emergency motion hoping to God that the judge is gonna say, this is an emergency enough that I'm just gonna sit you for hearing in two or three days, and you have to come in front of me before anything happens.
Heather: Or like in that other case that I told you about where the lady was abusing the — trying to get away from ICE — she had actually at the beginning of the case filed an emergency motion to prevent my client from leaving the country and going to Jordan. Well, he had no intention of ever going to Jordan. So I come on the case and I filed a reply, and so of course, you know, the emergency was denied. But the threat of taking the kids away was something in that situation, was, like, three or four months prior, and it was evidence that shouldn't have been attached to a petition in the first place. All the judge has to do is say, you know, I order you not to leave, and then it gets reported to TSA. So it's easier to stop that kind of situation in advance if you have the right kind of verbiage in your pleading.
Monica: Okay.
Heather: But filing emergencies piss off the judge.
Monica: Yeah. It's gotta be a real emergency.
Heather: Yeah. Did you read the administrative order? I'm sure is the first question they ask if it's not actually an emergency.
Monica: Right.
Heather: I mean, we were sitting in, like, the board certification conference, and a couple of the judges were sitting very close to us. And the next thing you know, like, they look at each other like, oh, another emergency comes in. Like, I gotta stop what I'm doing listening to this CLE and —
Monica: I know.
Heather: Take care of, you know, this emergency. And now one of them, it actually was an emergency, but at the same time, the amount of times that something like that comes in front of you and really is an emergency is hard. And it's hard to explain to your client an emergency is basically dead, dying, or bleeding.
Monica: Right.
Heather: When I say that, they get so mad 'cause they're like, but this is so important. Yes, it totally is, but we have to go through the proper channels, and that's gonna take a lot of time. So let's build our case, because if you come into court with just you saying to me they're dead, dying, or bleeding, and I have no evidence, then now we're back at square zero.
Monica: Right. You gotta make your case.
Heather: Yeah. So a lot of times they don't even understand that when you tell them how to create the evidence for their case, that that's actually gonna take a long time. So they're like, well, I already know all this, and I can already prove all this. And then I look at them and I'm like, you sound like a crazy person. I am not putting you on the stand without, like, a multitude of text messages and emails and photos, and like, go get it for me. Then let's have that conversation.
Monica: I do the same thing. I'm like, I need a timeline. Because it's always word of mouth. The consult is just like a word bomb, and, they touched me on this date. They hit me on this date. Timeline. Type it out. Write it out. I don't care.
Heather: Yeah. Send it to me.
Monica: Yeah. I need that 'cause it's too much information at once. It's not gonna help me in court.
Rapid Fire
Monica: Well, we have some rapid fire questions for you before we wrap up.
Heather: Oh, goodness.
Monica: I didn't send them to you.
Heather: Did I look at them? Okay.
Monica: They should be easy.
Heather: Woo. Okay.
Monica: So these are quick answers, right?
Brandon: Yeah. Okay. So you wanna just alternate?
Monica: Yeah. You go. You wanna start? I'll start. Okay. I'll start. So one thing parents overshare that makes you internally scream?
Heather: Sex.
Monica: Okay. About sex?
Heather: About their sex life. That's pretty — I mean, and I have to ask about it, which is really sad, because sometimes they come in and they're like, I don't know if I wanna get divorced yet. So I have to say to them, well, how's your sex life? Are you living in the same room? Are you living in the same bed? That kind of thing. And now, granted, coming from workers' compensation where we had to be like, oh, your back really hurts? Okay. So what positions do you do? You know? Like —
Monica: Completely off the question.
Heather: Right. But at the same time, like, I don't wanna know, like, how many times they had sex with their affair partner. Like, that part of it is irrelevant to me, because adultery basically is irrelevant. Except unless you're, you know, spending money on the other person. So I don't need to know that they went to the casino and they did it multiple different ways. No.
Monica: No.
Brandon: That's so funny that you guys talk about people's sex life. Wouldn't guess that, but that's interesting.
Brandon: Okay. Family lawyers think criminal court is?
Heather: Scary. I don't wanna touch criminal court.
Brandon: I don't know why I thought you were gonna say —
Heather: I would call you guys before I would touch it.
Brandon: God, I don't know why I thought you were gonna say a circus.
Heather: It is a circus.
Brandon: Yeah. Well, I mean —
Monica: It can be.
Heather: Yeah. I look at it like, I hate criminal law. I think I told a judge once that I thought I was allergic to criminals. So, like, I wanna stay away from that area. Because, you know, look, I know what I don't know, and I don't practice criminal law, so I'm gonna call a criminal defense attorney —
Brandon: Yeah. Fair enough.
Heather: Before I'm gonna call, like, Joe Schmo and just be like, hey, handle this, or, you know what? No big deal. I'll just go in on that situation. Like, no, no, no, no, no. I'm staying away. So it's, to me, it's a little scary. But I'll admit that.
Brandon: Fair enough. Definitely. I'll stay in my lane. I'm not going anywhere other than criminal court.
Monica: Mm-hmm. The last rapid fire question: strangest asset dispute in a divorce?
Heather: Strangest? I mean, I've divided wine collections. That's not that strange.
Monica: What? No, that is strange.
Heather: What?
Monica: Why are you fighting over wine collections, bro? Just take it. Right?
Heather: They fought over, like, who has half the China. That always just annoys me. Right? But then it's like you're fighting over, like, I want half the towels. I want half the China. I want, you know, this pot or this pan or this, you know, napkin, that kind of stuff. Like, that just annoys me.
Monica: I got divorced and I left everything. I was like, you can take everything. I'm just taking my clothes, and I gotta go.
Heather: You got some new towels at Costco.
Monica: I just gotta get out. You are fine. I gotta see my way out. Right? That was, like, the most important.
Heather: Yeah. But people get over it. I mean, the photographs too. The — someone looked at me and they're like, well, how am I supposed to split the photographs? I'm not doing that. And I said to them, go inside. Take every single photo — and this is before, like, where everything was digital, right? So I had to say, go and scan every single photo, and then give a thumb drive to your ex-spouse so that they have a copy of every single photograph that you have.
Monica: It's not like they wanna keep the marriage photos, so it's probably just photos of the kids and things.
Heather: It was all the kids. Yeah. And so she's like, all the vacations and all the affairs —
Monica: I don't need the wedding photos. You can leave those.
Heather: Yeah. No, they left, like, all the affair photos in there.
Monica: Oh, okay.
Heather: Yeah. It was bad. All the nude photos that they were trying to use against the other person. They left all those in there.
Monica: Oh my gosh.
Heather: Yeah.
Monica: I like that. They want all their photos. There you go. I'm like, okay, there you go. You want the pictures? There you go. All crazy.
Wrap-Up
Monica: Well, I wish we had more rapid fire questions. Those were good ones. Well, I guess that's all we got for you. Thank you so much for joining us.
Heather: Thank you.
Monica: This was such a good episode.
Brandon: Yeah, this was awesome.
Monica: Thank you so much. Such great stories.
Heather: Oh, I could keep going for another hour. This was fun.
Monica: I know. I was like — we'll do another. I feel like —
Brandon: We're gonna do another one.
Monica: I was like, I feel like we have so much more to talk about.
Brandon: Yeah. I think we're gonna do another one.
Monica: Yeah. That'll be good. Let's talk about all the stories. Thank you for blessing us with your presence today.
Heather: Thank you.
Monica: So if you liked listening to the show, make sure you like, comment and subscribe. We are on all platforms. Comebackwithawarrant.pod, and subscribe to our weekly newsletter and give us a 5-star review. And if you didn't like listening to us —
Brandon: Come back with a warrant.