Come Back With a Warrant
Episode 37: Chaos, Custody & Domestic Violence: When Law Worlds Collide | Part 2
Hosted by Brandon Dinetz and Monica Ishak
Intro
Brandon: Welcome back to Come Back With a Warrant podcast. I'm Brandon Dinetz.
Monica: And I'm Monica Ishak.
Monica: Before we kick-start this week's episode, this is your reminder that this podcast is not legal advice. It's real, unfiltered, and for entertainment purposes only. If you need to speak with a lawyer, call one. Or better yet, call us.
Brandon: Call us.
Episode
Brandon: So welcome back to the show. We had a great time doing a podcast with family law attorney Heather Stohlman, and we decided that we wanna do a Part 2 follow-up with her. So welcome back to the show, Heather. We're very excited to have you.
Heather: Thanks for having me.
Brandon: And everything that we're talking about is really the crossroad between family law and criminal law, and where those two worlds kind of collide, but also getting to hear the stories from somebody that handles these types of cases because, like our cases, those cases tend to get a little crazy. And definitely have different types of excitement in handling those types of cases.
Monica: With one word to kinda explain it. Yeah, for sure. Excitement. Well, let's just talk about it — it's funny you say excitement before we get into that, because I was in the courtroom yesterday in domestic violence courtroom, and I was speaking to a prosecutor who was talking about how tough it is to prosecute domestic sometimes.
Brandon: Why were they saying that?
Monica: Because the same reason we get excited when we get one. Like, it's just hard for them to prove it because it's always he said, she said, and the standard is so high. Whereas I think — I'm sure in family court it's much different, and in injunctions and stuff. But, yeah, it's just interesting 'cause when I get a domestic violence case, I don't wanna use the word excitement, but in terms of, like, when I strategize and look at the actual facts of the case and if the state can really prove it, I'm, like, getting a little, like, yeah. Like, I am excited. But obviously, I understand my client's circumstances and stuff, so that's the part that I was saying. Like, I don't know if I should say I'm excited, but you know what I mean.
Brandon: It depends on — it's a case-by-case basis because when you have a family case where it's, you know, the neighbor called the cops because the two people were yelling too loud, and then the police come and one person happens to get arrested, and there's really no injuries, there was no serious physical harm. Yeah, those are a little bit — I wouldn't say exciting, but definitely enticing as a criminal defense attorney because you're like, all right. This is the type of situation where I can probably bring home a dismissal for my client. And that's like the main goal that you have setting out when you have criminal cases. If you can get it dropped or dismissed or no-filed, that's the golden case.
Brandon: And domestic cases, certainly the misdemeanors, that happens more frequently because the state knows what they're up against. It's a difficult case for them to prove, and a lot of times the victim or the alleged victim does not want to really prosecute. But on the other side, there's a lot of times that the alleged victim does wanna prosecute, and it still may be a bullshit case, but that's because there is an ongoing family case at the same time. And that's where things collide.
Heather: Yeah. I look at it more like that invites chaos into our lives, not excitement — well, but chaos is exciting because that means, you know, we have work to do. But at the same time, our standard is very different. It's more, you know, would a reasonable person believe that you're in imminent fear of bodily harm or death to someone's person. And we do a lot of the he said, she said, but we get text messages and a whole bunch of collateral witnesses. And you don't have to think about the criminal statute, what elements do you guys have to prove? We just have to say, what is a reasonable person going to believe? And so some people use it as a tool, and then others actually have that problem. So I think the judges are getting a little more skeptical from a family law perspective. It's just very different.
Heather: When you said you were in court yesterday and domestic violence, I thought to myself, oh, is she gonna talk about criminal? Is she gonna talk about family court? Because there's a lot of crossover there.
Monica: Of course.
Brandon: And that's one of the reasons why we were so excited to have you on initially because what we see a lot of times is there will be an alleged victim that's alleging that they were the victim of domestic violence, whether they were or they weren't, but they're doing it in part to bolster a family case, or build a family case where there isn't one. And they believe that getting the police involved is going to somehow benefit their family case. And I feel like it probably does more to complicate things than to make it easier to deal with a family case, right?
Heather: It definitely complicates things. And if you look back about, I would say, 15 to 20 years ago, they used to do that as a tool. So, like, some of these older gentleman family law attorneys, they used to file the TRO-type actions and get —
Monica: Injunctions, yeah.
Heather: A domestic violence injunction in place just to get the other person out of the house. So that was back in the day when you were considered abandoning the house if you left it. And so that was a person who kept the house. Nowadays, it's not so much the case, but because of those days where everyone used to use it as a tool, the judges are a little more skeptical to enter them unless you've really proven, hey, I'm actually in fear.
Monica: So based on that, how do the judges that are skeptical handle, like, if there is already an order in a family court, and then there comes a domestic violence allegation, and automatically a no contact order in place, and then throw in an injunction in there. And there's kids involved, and time-sharing has already been ordered previously. So how do those judges weigh in the criminal case knowing the fact — I should specify who's getting in trouble in that situation. But if the judges are already kind of siding with the person who is getting in trouble in the criminal case, whether it's mom or dad, how do they handle it when it's time to assess the domestic violence case?
Heather: So the first thing they always think about is best interest of the child. So if there's a child involved, they're gonna look to, how do I make sure that this kid is safe? So it depends on what the allegations were. Obviously, if someone was wielding a knife or holding a gun up, obviously they're gonna keep the kids away from that person. But if they didn't, and it was just mom versus dad, and kids weren't even in the room, then I don't necessarily know that that makes it dangerous to the kids, unless there was something else going on. So they're almost gonna look at that injunction like, if the kids weren't around, and this is really between mom and dad, then my expectation would be that the judge is gonna look at it and say, are they trying to pull the wool over my eyes?
Monica: Okay.
Heather: So they have to be a little more careful because you can't withhold the kids without some finding that the Domestic Violence Act would affect the children, right? So I've had these cases where, like, kid's one year old, right? If the act happened where mom gets kicked in the stomach and beaten in the head, and the kid is sitting there screaming, but it's one year old — is that kid really affected? They're not gonna have any memories of that situation, but if dad had the gumption to do that in front of the child at one year old, is he likely to do it again? The answer is probably yes.
Monica: Right.
Heather: So should they put some kind of safety goals in place? Of course, right? But they're not gonna completely withhold the child. They're gonna do some kind of, like, hey, we can do supervision, or we can step up into something else, or we can have a supervisor at the exchanges so that mom doesn't have to deal with dad. But it doesn't necessarily mean that dad is gonna beat the child. So then we deal with it a little differently.
Heather: But if there's no kids involved, and it's husband versus wife, then it depends on, like, where are you in the case. So Palm Beach County, for example, has a temporary order in place that says, you're not allowed to come in front of me until you've completed mediation. So I'm not allowed to give you the relief to kick the other person out of the house. This is where those old-school domestic violence things come to place. So, ugh, hubby came home totally drunk, and he beat me, but there's, like, no scars, no marks, no nothing, right? So, like, yeah, he was probably drunk, and the two of you just aren't getting along. So I'm not gonna kick you out of the house, but at the same time, like, maybe one of you — you go in your separate rooms, right? Like when your mom used to tell you to go to your separate sides of the house kinda thing.
Monica: Oh, my gosh.
Heather: So we deal with that kind of stuff. It sounds a little more like bullshit. And the judges —
Monica: It's like babysitting.
Heather: Right. They do. And it's frustrating. I mean, the judges that we deal with have, like, three or four hours' worth of domestic violence hearings a week. And they do them all at the same time. I feel bad for them. It's a pain in the ass to wield through all that shit. You could show up for a hearing with 10 or 11 different witnesses, and then the judge looks up at you like, are you kidding me? You're not doing that in 30 minutes. There's no way.
Monica: Right.
Heather: So then you get reset. So what do you do at that point that you get reset for another two weeks out, you gotta redo your entire case. I mean, it's just expensive from our point of view. But they're really not looking at, hey, you guys have criminal elements here. They're looking at who's more — like, would a reasonable person be scared of this situation?
Brandon: Are judges less inclined to grant temporary injunctions when there's no criminal case versus when there is a criminal case? Like, for example, I know in Palm Beach County, if there's an open criminal case and an injunction is filed, the criminal judge is the one that also is hearing that injunction. So they're more than likely granting that injunction because all they know about the situation is what the criminal case is and what the allegations in the criminal case are. But if there's a civil family law case, and an injunction is filed in one of those cases without there being an arrest, do you think it's less likely that a judge grants one of those injunctions?
Heather: I don't think it matters. I think, you know, whether or not there was actually an arrest or not, we see so many that are just file a domestic violence action and it won't go through the misdemeanor court. It'll just be a civil DV action. So I think the judges more so look at, like, where are they in their marriage. So have they filed for divorce yet? Are they doing this as a means to get them out of the house at the same time as filing for divorce? So I think it boils down to if you file for divorce and then a DV comes within, like, the first five to 10 days, that's probably a volatile household, but it's also probably whoever was a petitioner wanting the respondent —
Brandon: The other person out.
Heather: Out. Right? So then they'll deny it. And they'll say, go to mediation. Go do all your discovery, and then you gotta deal with two crazy people. I mean, no offense. Divorce makes you just crazy. So that's why I said, like, for me, it's more chaos than excitement because I actually hate when those kinds of situations come up. I look at my client and I think to myself, can I actually believe more of what you're telling me? I never believe everything that they tell you. Three sides to every story.
Monica: We're all right.
Heather: But can I actually believe you enough? And then I make them bring me the proof. Right? So then it's like, okay, what are you really bringing me? If it's just he said, she said, and there's no recorded voicemails that say, like, oh, I hate you, blah, blah, blah —
Monica: Well, the proof — I mean, you have to do your job and provide the evidence for the fact finder, i.e. the judge, to make a favorable ruling for your client. So you need to be able to provide whatever that is, so yeah.
When Videos Change Everything
Brandon: The proof is so important. One of the big examples, because, you know, as we're filming this, right now one of the big examples of domestic violence is the girl that's on —
Monica: Talk about Secret Lives of Mormon Wives.
Brandon: Oh, yeah.
Monica: And she was supposed to be the Bachelorette. Taylor Frankie Paul. And this video comes out of —
Heather: Oh, that's very recent.
Monica: She's no longer the Bachelorette because this video came out of her flipping out and throwing a chair, like, near her kid and having, like, a full-on domestic incident.
Heather: How did they not know? They did know.
Brandon: They did know.
Monica: Well, yeah, it's on ABC. They saw it. How did — I thought you'd gone. Yeah, why did they let this happen?
Brandon: Yeah, because they had already spent tens of millions of dollars putting the show together, and they were —
Heather: Right, but they should've edited her first.
Brandon: Yes. They absolutely should have edited her first. Like, that's public record.
Monica: No, exactly. And she was on probation for it, and it was on Secret Lives of Mormon Wives, like, on the reality TV where she was on probation.
Heather: That video wasn't, though. The video — and that changes everything. When a video gets released, that changes everything.
Monica: True, but they could have also probably gotten their hands on it. Like, did they even try to get it? I don't know. I think the guy leaked it. But even if — to be candid. Even if they didn't see that video, I think that guy leaked it for that purpose.
Brandon: Yeah, but you have to remember something. We live in an age where when the video comes out, that changes everything, and I think about that all the time. Do you remember who Ray Rice is?
Monica: No.
Brandon: So Ray Rice was a football player for the Baltimore Ravens, a running back, really, really good player. Gets a domestic violence incident that occurs, and he is suspended. The video comes out, and it shows him knocking this woman unconscious.
Heather: Was this the one in the elevator?
Brandon: Yes.
Heather: Yeah, I remember that.
Brandon: And when that happened, he was banned from football. And it changes things because when the video of something comes out, when you start to see the video, it changes everything. It makes the entire situation completely different. It's like P. Diddy in the hallway.
Heather: Correct.
Brandon: When you see that video — what we're always looking for is where's the proof, where's the evidence, where's everything.
Heather: There's the proof, right. It's right there.
Monica: The thing is, so I think there's a difference between that football player and Taylor Frankie Paul, not to defend her actions, 'cause I saw the video and I was disturbed by it, but I also am a fan, so I'm just gonna —
Brandon: A fan of hers.
Monica: I'm not gonna lie.
Brandon: Fair enough.
Monica: So, but he was under suspension pending investigation versus her — she had shot this whole season three years after this incident that you're talking about, and now this video's coming out. Like, how is that fair? She has a new incident that came out.
Brandon: Yes. And now —
Monica: She has a brand-new domestic incident that's being investigated.
Brandon: Yes. And so now the crossover of the two is now being a whole thing. But they suspended her for that video. They took away —
Heather: Well, how can you put on, like, because I think those shows, like The Bachelorette, I think that shit's fake anyways. So, like, I think a lot of it is, like, scripted, or if it's not scripted, then the producers push you to do certain things.
Monica: Like, I love drama TV. Yeah, of course.
Heather: So to me, like, they can't sit there, you know, ABC, the owners of Disney, and put this princess on that's waiting for her, the right man to find her, and it's like she's absolutely out of her mind. Like, you're trying to set up a domestic relationship with somebody who will throw a chair —
Monica: They already did, though, in front of a kid. It's done. They already shot the season.
Heather: Really, it's, like, here it's — clearly they didn't get together, though.
Brandon: Yeah, yeah. That's probably, she probably didn't find somebody.
Heather: No. So that saves you having to watch all those episodes.
Brandon: But to your credit of what you said — exactly. So if they know that she's gonna throw the chair and they know that she's crazy, then you expect that even if that video came out, that's exactly who you put on television. If you're having, like, a trash show. Not if you're trying to paint, like, this beautiful, like, romance story with we're giving out roses. Like, no, if you wanna have, like, some trashy fucking ratchet VH1 type of show —
Monica: I love that.
Brandon: Yeah, like, we want the chick that throws chairs to be the one that all these guys are fighting for. But that's a different show for a different audience —
Heather: Yeah, it's like having Jerry Springer right back-to-back with Oprah.
Monica: Oh, my gosh.
Brandon: Exactly right. That's two different audiences. That's two different types of show.
Monica: But it's funny that you bring up Jerry Springer, 'cause I feel like that's Family Court.
Heather: It is. I mean, yeah. Jerry Springer is a lot of Family Court.
Brandon: Are you the dad? Are you the dad?
Monica: Yeah. That's Maury. Are you the dad?
Brandon: Yeah. Maury was the one that was doing the DNA testing with the babies.
Heather: Yeah. And that's still great.
Brandon: Well, Jerry Springer was a lawyer, too. Wasn't he, like, a senator and a lawyer or something? Was he a mayor of something? Whatever. They all know what they're doing.
Monica: Yeah, exactly.
Brandon: I was on the Jerry Springer Show once.
Heather: Why?
Brandon: I wasn't a — I didn't, like — I went and watched it filmed.
Heather: Oh.
Brandon: So I was in the crowd.
Heather: Did you get to chant? Did you high-five the groom?
Brandon: Oh, yeah, of course. Of course. I high-fived him when he walked in. Oh, yeah. My gosh. I was the real deal. My friend and I, we were in college, and we went to Connecticut. And they were filming it, and we were like, let's do it. And we got tickets, and they were free, and we went.
Heather: That's so random.
Brandon: Yeah, that's so funny.
Heather: Did you find your head on TV?
Brandon: Of course. When we played it back, my friend and I, we were wearing, like, bright colored polo shirts because we wanted to make sure we got seen on TV. And we could easily see ourselves. And they put us right in the row that he used to walk out on and high-five all the people, so.
Heather: Oh, my God. And you did all that for free.
Brandon: Uh-huh. Totally.
Monica: I love that for you.
Brandon: It was awesome. I don't remember what the chaos was at the time that was on the show. I just remember that moment. For clarification, I was just in the audience. I was not on it.
Heather: I've watched Jerry Springer before.
Monica: Yeah.
Brandon: Not participating. No baby mama drama in my life. Thankfully.
Heather: Yes. Thank God. No, not for me. But anyways, do you deal with a lot of baby mama drama?
Heather: All the time.
Monica: Yeah? Like, where people are saying, like, he's not the dad?
Heather: Oh, I had a couple of those cases. Those, in the beginning of my career, those were all, like, the NBA players saying like —
Monica: Oh, my God.
Heather: I don't really know that that's my chick. I'm like, do you remember having sex with her? They're like, well, maybe.
Monica: All the time. That's so cool.
Brandon: I mean, that makes sense with athletes 'cause they just are reckless.
Heather: You're blaming the athletes. They just party.
Brandon: They party.
Heather: I mean, I get it. They're sought after the whole wide world. There's women out here trying to lock up these athletes.
Monica: True. That's true. They are.
Heather: It's so sad.
Monica: Very true. Let me not blame them enough. That's not only the athlete's fault.
Brandon: It takes two to tango.
Heather: It does take two to tango. It does.
Monica: But that's so cool that you did — like, so you — I mean, obviously we're not gonna talk about who, but you had, like, pro athletes that there was girls that were like, oh, this is the father of my child.
Heather: Lots. People that you know that have been all over television.
Brandon: Oh, that's so great.
Heather: It was fun.
Brandon: Did it turn out that they were most of the time the parents?
Heather: No, they were always the dad. They were always the dad. They were always the dad.
Monica: It's always athletes.
Heather: Exactly. In my book, they were always the dad. It was always the father. And it was always, oh, he used a condom. Oh, well, did you check to see if they used their earring to poke it first?
Monica: Oh, my God.
Brandon: You know? Something I never worried about growing up. Literally something I never worried about.
Monica: We're having that story right now. Stop here and share. That is — God.
Heather: Damn it.
Monica: Women, like, popping holes in condoms. That's hilarious.
Brandon: New fear unlocked. Really. You don't have to worry about it.
Heather: Not for me. For me, I'm good.
Brandon: That is so funny. But that is a new fear.
Heather: Oh, my God. Wow. It happens.
Monica: Talk about entrapment. Yeah, literally. That's actually entrapment for real. My goodness gracious. And expensive.
Monica: So in terms of baby mama drama, have you seen that crossover with criminal cases?
Heather: Let me think. I haven't had too many paternity cases crossover with the baby mama dramas. But they're usually harder because it's a case where they didn't actually get along long enough or hard enough. So there's always this, like, just a shit show, is usually how I describe it. So when you're dealing with the paternity and they just had the kid first and then can't get along, they're usually really not getting along. Like, they're just so on different planes that you look at them like, you probably should not have kids. Now, granted, I caveat that with there are some people who just get along. Of course there are. There are examples. But usually if you end up in my office, it's a bad situation normally.
Monica: Well, that makes sense.
Heather: And it's not like you hate taking those cases. They're still the same kind of situation. You just say, okay, well, we don't have to deal with alimony, and we don't have to deal with equitable distribution. But you're still dealing with all the same kid issues, and you still have to tell them all the same things, you know? Like, hey, Florida's still a 50/50 state, so suck it up, buttercup. They're gonna have to figure out how to be mom or dad or whatever. But more times than not, the cases that I'm seeing that are paternity cases usually have, like, one parent either has, like, major psychological disorders or there's massive drug problems involved, and they can either really prove it or they really can't prove it. And, like, you just don't know until you get into the middle of the case, so.
Stepparent Adoptions & Termination
Monica: Have you seen a situation where it's, like, mom, dad, and there's a child, but the child does not belong — it only belongs to one of the people in the relationship?
Heather: Yes.
Monica: And that person that is the parent is not the good parent, and the other partner is actually the caretaker of that child, and there is a domestic violence allegation between the two?
Heather: That's so specific. Ooh, like between the —
Monica: That's so specific. It happens very commonly. Like, frequently.
Heather: Great question. Like, a stepparent is an excellent parent, but they're not the biological parent.
Monica: Yeah. And then the allegation comes out, and then it's like you don't really have rights to the — right? Or am I making that up? I don't know. I guess that's my question — what rights would that parent have? Like stepdad?
Heather: Okay, so now you're talking, like, would stepdad have rights to their non-biological kids? The answer is no. Unless — so this is a very specific type of situation, and I've only done a couple of these. You're doing a termination of parental rights with a stepparent adoption. Because in family court, you're only doing a termination of parental rights if it is combined with that stepparent adoption action. So if the termination of parental rights is denied, the stepparent adoption is automatically denied, and they should happen at the exact same time.
Heather: So more often than not, it's not domestic violence involved in those kinds of situations. It's more like an abandonment. But abandonment under that chapter of the statute talks about, like, two years, no financial, physical, emotional, anything. Like, no contact with the kids or more. So one of the situations that comes to mind in my case was, dad — well, he was — I think he had just gotten out of jail for, like, the fourth or fifth time when stepdad comes in, and he's like, look, I've raised these kids more than you, and he legit did. So we had this guardian ad litem on the case. I represented mom and stepdad. And the guardian ad litem comes in, and she looks over at the whole situation. She's like, so when was the last time bio dad actually saw these kids? And it had been years. I mean, the younger child, who is now, like, 18 — the younger child was maybe 18 months —
Heather: When the parents got divorced, right? So stepdad comes into the picture, like, a year later. So we added up how many days stepdad had been in these kids' lives versus their own biological father taking their time-sharing, and it was an astounding number. Pretty much her whole life. Bio dad's time-sharing was, like, 9% of the kid's life, and stepdad's time-sharing was, like, 83% of the kid's life. It was just tremendous. But bio dad had been in jail for white-collar fraud and had been shipped off to, like, Jacksonville, and then started I don't even know how many other businesses, and then committed more fraud and went back to jail. And so, like, this poor kid really had nothing to do with bio dad.
Heather: So we come in, we try to terminate parental rights. We get through most of the entire situation, and bio dad was objecting. So we ended up — I swear to God, we went in a full trial. But why? 'Cause he's, you know, the typical, like, oh, he's gotta be a narcissist to go through that kind of situation, right? Like, they're too proud. Their ego gets in the way. And frankly, like, think about it with your own kids, right? Like, would you actually walk away from your kids?
Brandon: No. Never.
Heather: No, right? So this guy —
Brandon: I also wouldn't find myself in these fucking situations. Because I know too much. But yeah, no, I could — no. You could never walk away from your kids.
Heather: Exactly. It's really hard to put someone in that kind of situation. So bio dad actually fought it until the very, very end. I mean, he had actually signed consent, and then you have, like, 60 hours to —
Brandon: Rescind.
Heather: To rescind. Yeah, he rescinded. And we ended up in trial. It was, like, a Friday to a Monday. Monday was trial. It was terrible. And oh, by the way — like, my mother got into a — she was in a car accident.
Brandon: Oh, my God.
Heather: I was — trial was, like, Tuesday. She was in a car accident on Monday, so I was, like, in the hospital with her all day. It was crazy. Fun stuff.
Monica: That is, like, so chaotic.
Heather: Like you said. That is chaos. It's chaos in my world. It's not exciting. It's not fun.
Monica: Yeah.
Heather: But stepdad won, and so he adopted the kids, and I don't even know if they call him Dad. They started calling him Dad, like, way after the fact. But they hadn't called him Dad before. So everyone in those kinds of situations, like, usually mom was doing all the right things. Stepdad was doing all the right things, and he comes in and he's just, you know, hero of the day. But it's a hard blow when you tell someone, like, you're not allowed to be your biological parent anymore. Right? And then the kids also lose their potential inheritance to that person. It's not automatic unless the dad was there.
Brandon: And the inheritance of the guy that was in jail a bunch of times. I mean, not much to inherit.
Heather: Yeah. They're fine.
Monica: But it's just sad.
Heather: Those are sad situations. But there's usually not DV in those kinds of cases. So not as much of an overlap in that kind of situation.
Battered Woman Syndrome & DV Patterns
Monica: So what situations do you see DV? Like, mostly just kind of like your standard —
Heather: Standard divorce household. Standard divorce, when you've just got someone just out of control, they're physically violent. You know, a lot of those situations where I remember back in the day when we started defining battered woman syndrome. Those kinds of situations where the woman doesn't come forward for a really long time. When she finally does come forward, it's —
Monica: No one believes her.
Heather: Right? It's the woman who cried wolf.
Monica: Exactly.
Heather: And so you almost don't wanna believe 'em, and oh, how can I believe this situation? But then you have, say, they did report it, and then they rescinded it, or they filed a domestic violence, and then they rescinded it.
Monica: How many times have your clients said to you, like, oh, no, I don't wanna go forward. I don't really wanna prosecute?
Heather: It's usually 'cause they're more scared.
Monica: That is something I have recognized. So when we get hired on criminal cases that are domestic in nature, I oftentimes ask my client, do you think the alleged victim wants to prosecute?
Brandon: Yep.
Monica: And if they don't, I give them a call and I say, hey, are you willing to sign this non-prosecution affidavit? Knowing that — obviously, like, in the back of my head, maybe this did happen, but it's not really my problem because I have to advocate for my client. But I have seen, like, I've pulled up the clerk's website and seen a client's name and many DVs no-filed or nolle prossed, and those are usually, like, kind of a red flag to me, like this person really is a victim. You know, versus the ones that are, like, gung-ho all the way to trial, like the one we had where she was taking financial advantage of our client, and it was definitely not the case where our client was abusing her the way she was claiming at all. So it's just interesting, like, how you're saying that from the family law perspective, and I'm also kind of seeing that from the criminal perspective, that usually the ones that are rescinding or saying, like, they make the claim or they don't report it at all are usually the ones that are being battered.
Heather: They are. And then you gotta add that extra layer on in our perspective when there's kids around, right? So if they're rescinding — so say wife comes along and says, hey, I wanna file this DV, right? And then husband hires a criminal defense attorney, and husband somehow, through whatever channels, or the wife just knows from all the past history, like, I better drop this or it's gonna be bad. That's always what goes through their head. And then in my mind, I have to think to myself, okay, what's in the children's best interests? Right? So you guys look at it, like, okay, I gotta do what's best for my client, and then I have to sit back and say, like, okay, shit, this husband or this wife is gonna go back to this house and totally abuse all these kids. What do you do? Who do you actually represent in that case, right? 'Cause in the back of your mind, I have to think about the kids first. So what do you do in those situations?
Monica: I pray.
Heather: Well, you just take it out — I don't know. I mean, I think I'm praying.
Brandon: But it's hard. Every case is different. But you just counsel your client that if they go back to the house, this is potentially what's gonna happen. You tell them, get a lock on your door, and make sure you sleep with the kids in the room, and, you know, don't necessarily have a gun in the room or anything. But yeah, it's just hard. It's hard sending them back into the house in that kind of situation.
Heather: I hate that.
Monica: Yeah, that's tough. I have had situations where I represent victims, and they are actively getting phone calls and text messages from their partner — technically still their partner 'cause they're married but separated in these situations where it's, like, a domestic violence case is going on. And it's like, if you don't drop this, I'm gonna go to jail automatically. You're not gonna be able to pay for this, or things like that. And then they feel like they're put in a place, and they're like, okay, never mind. I don't wanna proceed with this. And it's like they feel kind of just strong-armed to be like, no, I can't, you know? Like, they know it's gonna be worse for them because I can't afford life, and I'm gonna be out on the streets alone.
Heather: Yeah. It's way harder.
Monica: Or they're used to, like, enabling their partner's behavior in a way, even though maybe they're not necessarily — maybe they are financially, technically free. They have their own job or whatever. They just are used to kind of having this, like, really toxic dynamic between them and their partner where they're always the one to give, and the other partner's taking, taking, taking, on point with, like, a narcissist.
Heather: Yeah. And you know what's even worse, though? Like, when you talk to the therapists on these cases, they'll tell you that because they've been so battered for so long, they'll get into this dynamic where they think that being battered is the safe situation because they know what the outcome is, and they know how to control how their own emotions react. But they don't realize that their nervous system is completely off-kilter and what to do, so they actually look at being battered as the safer of the two situations.
Monica: Oh my gosh. The devil you know.
Heather: Right. It's terrible. So now you've gotta completely rewire that person, but you gotta get them into therapy first, and then they've gotta do all the hard work. Oh, wait, I lost my health insurance because my husband canceled it because of this domestic violence incident. You know, what are you gonna do?
Monica: Wow. That's hard. And then battered woman syndrome is not a defense here.
Brandon: Right.
Monica: They end up snapping. So I don't know. I just thought of that. I was like, that's crazy. 'Cause, like, now knowing the psychology of it, it's like how could that not be a defense?
Heather: Yeah.
Monica: I completely agree with you. Like, at least for maybe a lesser or something to mitigate the situation. Maybe not actually excuse the behavior, like, oh, yeah, it's totally fine. Like, you're just walking —
Brandon: I think it does, though. I think it does. It does because the way that the person's ultimately charged and what they ultimately are sentenced to, and the conversations that go on with the state attorney's office — when you're able to say, listen, my client was a victim of abuse for a long time, and they defended themselves, or they took action, there's a little bit more that you have when you can start talking to the state about the case as opposed to just my client had a violent outburst.
Elderly Clients & Guardianship
Brandon: One of the things I wanted to bring up to you, I have a new situation now that I'm currently dealing with where I have an elderly client.
Heather: Uh-oh.
Brandon: And my elderly client has Alzheimer's disease, and she has gotten arrested, and this is not the first time she's gotten arrested recently. And the allegations are two separate incidents that were a violent outburst. But what I'm seeing in terms of why I'm bringing this up to you is I'm seeing her family, her children, get involved and start the process of guardianship to try to take some control over the situation, really take control over my client, and try to get her into some sort of either facility, or start making certain decisions for her because she's at a spot where this is gonna continue to happen if there's no actions that are taken. But it's a completely new cross-section for me of domestic violence and family law because I'm dealing with — you obviously, you deal with where mental health comes and gets involved in your cases all the time. This is, like, a totally different scenario because we're talking about the family court having to get involved because of the parent being so old and suffering from a mental illness that is completely compromising them. And it is causing her to go through fits of delirium and confusion and ultimately react in a violent way.
Heather: Right.
Brandon: But do you do guardianship stuff first and foremost?
Heather: I don't. I refer it out, but I know what you're talking about.
Brandon: Yeah. So this is one area where I knew I wanted to bring it up today because I'm seeing a whole new side of the family court involved in a criminal case, which I've never really dealt with before. It's beneficial in part on the criminal side because I have very clear mitigation, and I have a very clear circumstance and picture that I can paint for the state attorney's office because my client is not a bad or a violent person. They are suffering from Alzheimer's disease and not understanding and getting confused and reacting.
Heather: It's really sad, yeah.
Brandon: It's tough to see, and this is unfortunately the second incident we've had this year. So the first case was dismissed ultimately.
Heather: Oh.
Brandon: And this case is now brand new and open.
Heather: The state's probably like, this is the second case, you know?
Brandon: Well, I don't know. I don't know exactly what the state is gonna do yet. We're very early in the filing stage still. And I'm hopeful that they'll dismiss it. Her husband is not inclined to see her prosecuted heavily, but he also is kind of unaware that there's this whole civil case happening and guardianship, and I don't know if that is also divorce-related. There's a lot of stuff that's happening in the background. So it's very interesting, and there's concerns over her assets and things because of the position that she's in. It's a mess I've dealt with.
Heather: So, like, you're basically saying she needs to be deemed incompetent by either a psychologist or a neurologist, right? Oh, yeah. And then the crossover from my perspective would be, like, you've got, like, the older couples who are arguing, and one of 'em says, like, I don't wanna be around you anymore, and they wanna get divorced, but when you go through the guardianship, you know what's gonna happen — is that her husband is gonna end up being one of the guardians.
Brandon: I don't know. I think her kids are gonna be the —
Heather: Oh, thank goodness, because normally —
Brandon: Her son is gonna be the guardian.
Heather: It's not the husband. I normally see it where they try to be, like, the husband would be the guardian, right? And then you've gotta discharge the husband as the guardian because the husband can't be the guardian, and the other party file for divorce, or the other person can't file for divorce through you. Like, it's just a mess.
Brandon: It's a mess. So I'm watching this situation unfold now, and it's a completely new crossroad between family law and criminal law that I'm watching. Someone at the later stages in their life. But I expect that this is something that I would run into more frequently down in South Florida. I think this is something that I will see again, and I've seen variations of things like this before. I've never had it as bad as it is now. But it's an interesting crossroad, because you have a lot of elderly people, and when their mind goes —
Heather: Sad. So sad.
Brandon: It's sad. And I'm just watching and interacting and doing my job as just the criminal lawyer to try to get her out of the criminal trouble. But I'm not dealing with any of the guardianship or any of the asset stuff. I'm just — like a mess.
Heather: It is a mess. But my hope is that the state does the right thing and gets rid of the case, and then they can try to figure it out. Well, I'll tell you what I would like to see a little more of. Is when you have those kinds of crossovers, those are the cases where the family attorneys and the criminal attorneys should talk more.
Brandon: Mm-hmm.
Heather: So I've noticed it's really hard to get a state attorney on the phone when you're in the middle of a family law case if they all have the same parties involved, and for some reason, they won't call you back. That makes no sense to me. And then you get on the phone finally with the state attorney, and no offense, but they're usually really young attorneys who are up and coming, but they don't have the kind of experience to understand what's going on in the family court side of it, to know that there's more to it. There's usually a huge financial component behind it that if they just talked, they'd be able to probably figure out whether or not there's proof in the pudding, and one side eventually is gonna have, like, way more proof than the other if they don't have those conversations.
Heather: So, you know, luckily in Palm Beach County, we have the unified family court system. So that system combines juvenile, family, criminal — like, that basically just sends all our family stuff down to criminal or sends all our family stuff over to juvenile dependency, and it's a whole different animal when you do stuff like that. But when you have a criminal case going at the same time but it might not involve the same parties, the state attorney won't talk to you.
Brandon: The state can be — it can be difficult, and I know just from being a prosecutor, there was no real education as a prosecutor about the crossroad between family law and criminal cases when I think there should be. And there was not — I didn't learn anything about the injunctions and the restraining orders and everything until I left and went to the defense side. I wish I would've learned some of that as a prosecutor, because I think there's a huge correlation between what's going on with those types of injunction cases and the criminal case. And there's impact, and they lay over each other, because if an injunction is granted and the person has a no contact order, but they also have a no contact order in the criminal case, well, which one's more important? Which one controls? And then if they go on probation, and there's another no contact order, which no contact order is the one that controls, and which one is more strict? That's something we see often.
Heather: You follow the strictest one.
Brandon: Yeah. Right. Of course.
Heather: I mean, just in case.
Monica: Just in case, right. You don't wanna piss off a judge, right.
Heather: Right. Yeah.
DCF Recommendations and Crossover
Monica: No, when it comes to the no contact orders, the injunctions, and also — I was gonna ask you about this 'cause we did touch on the DCF recommendations.
Heather: Oh, yeah.
Monica: And you were talking a little bit about this before — we talked about the DCF recommendations a lot in the first episode, and you mentioned this a little bit earlier. But my question is, how does the family court navigate a DCF recommendation in a criminal case for, like, the parties with children involved?
Heather: Depends. So if there's already an existing parenting plan in place, then the DCF recommendations are guidelines. But I can't tell my client to violate a sitting court order, right? So DCF recommendations are recommendations. It's not a court order that tells you that you can or have to withhold the kids. So you have to use your best judgment, file something immediately. Like, I would have to file some kind of urgent motion. I mean, I don't know that it would be an emergency type situation. But I would have to have something pending to justify my actions if I tell my client, yeah, you can go ahead and continue to withhold these kids, right?
Heather: Like, if there's sexual abuse or something that's going on, where DCF comes in and says, no, CPT investigated, and this kid was actually sexually abused. You should withhold, and we're not giving the kid back. But they don't actually open up a shelter case, right? But there is a pending criminal case going on. I don't actually have a vehicle to stop that time-sharing until either A, in the criminal case there's a no contact order issued, or B, I get in front of the judge in family court and say, hey, I've got these DCF recommendations and I gotta do something with it. And what really happens? DCF's recommendations are a piece of paper. And they're so small. There's, like, two lines on there. And it's some kinda, like, carbon copy piece of paper that they give your client, right?
Heather: Now I come onto the case and I call that DCF agent. You know what happens? They don't remember anything.
Monica: No, they can't talk to you.
Heather: They can't talk to you because they represent the state, and the state takes care of the kids, and there's all kinds of privacy concerns under Chapter 39. So I can't even get through to the DCF person because they're in the middle of an active investigation. So I would rather that DCF person open the case in DCF land, because once I'm in juvenile court, I can get in front of the judge, I can talk to opposing counsels. I can actually make things happen. But until I get there, I'm literally just sitting with a piece of carbon copy paper, filing something in my court system, trying to build my case, and hope to God that the judge doesn't come back and say, oh, well, you actually lost that situation. Now you owe my client back 150-something overnights.
Monica: So how do you navigate — with, like, especially those two lines, like, let's say their finding is that there was sexual abuse and the recommendation was that you can continue withholding the children. How does the court make a finding if you're not able to get in the evidence to show that, and you just have this DCF paper that says that? Do they just follow it?
Heather: They take as much information as you can get. So all the information that was brought to DCF in the first place is stuff that you then have to go gather and bring forward. And that is a tremendous amount of work, obviously, and a whole bunch of money for your client.
Monica: It's so annoying. Like, if they could just give you the file.
Heather: Yeah, exactly.
Monica: Just give you the file. They won't give it to you. Or they give it to you highly redacted, and you can't get anything. You're like, I don't know.
Heather: Right. No, I mean, it's such a pain. But at the same time, if I can bring forward all the same information, then I'm gonna bring forward all that information. It's just, the unfortunate part is that the judges are gonna give you a shorter amount of time on an urgent issue. And so I can't bring forward a two-day trial in 30 minutes.
Monica: Oh my gosh.
Heather: Right. How does that — that doesn't work.
Monica: No, that's insane.
Heather: But to your point earlier — the thing about family court versus the criminal court is while we all wish that they would talk, family court has to talk, because one of the elements that we have to look at is the morals and values of the other parent. And so, like, if there's really something going on from a criminal perspective, even if it's just, like, a white collar crime that doesn't actually affect the children, but if they're doing this, like, moving money and stealing and embezzling and all that other kind of stuff, like, is that necessarily a good moral or value that my client and my kids are supposed to be able to see? No. So it's my obligation to go investigate that kinda thing. But then the state attorney's not gonna wanna talk to me, because it's not actually relevant to their case. They just don't realize that you could actually help out one of the other sides, but they advocate for the state. They don't advocate for either side. That's the tricky widget.
Monica: Well, I think as a prosecutor, you should investigate your case and find out what the defense has to prove otherwise, and vice versa. Like, I think there is kind of an ethical responsibility to communicate with the other side. And if the defense attorney is trying to provide additional information from, like, the family lawyer's perspective that could help the criminal case in an aspect that the prosecutor wouldn't expect, especially in domestic violence misdemeanors at least, because those are brand new freaking lawyers out of school.
Heather: They are.
Monica: Literally three-month-old lawyers, which is great experience for them, but also, you know, we need to kind of educate them a little bit on the other parts of the system, because they're only being exposed to such a limited area. I think they come in with just, like, ignorance. You know? Like, they really don't know.
Heather: They just don't know.
Brandon: You don't know what you don't know.
Heather: But they think they know. They think they know. That's the problem. You know how many people I have counseled to just say, like, you're a baby lawyer. Go watch a hearing? And the judges will open up their courtrooms to it all the time.
Monica: Yeah. But I think that also with domestic, it's one of those areas in criminal that it crosses over with so many different areas of law. It could be — we could have a domestic, immigration, family law, like, mess. You know what I mean? And, like, as a brand-new lawyer, you would not even know that these things would cross over and affect each other. Because you're just like, oh, these are the elements. This is what I have to prove. But you don't know that a lot of — if you come from, like, a really great background and this is your first job ever, you don't know that people use, like, financials and kids to gain leverage in their relationships. Like, you don't really have that life experience yet to really know that even.
Heather: Okay. Let me make it even harder. Okay, so you can have a criminal attorney, you can have a family law attorney, you can have a guardianship attorney going all at the same time. Now, ready? Make it even harder. Then you can have your estate planning attorney —
Monica: Oh my gosh.
Heather: Have to come in, and then you can have a tax attorney because the financials are wrong. And now we have, like, five or six different lawyers who are operating at the exact same time. So when you really say, like, you just don't know what you're talking about until you get into the breadth of it, they don't know. And don't try to figure it out.
Monica: Yeah. Oh, my God. It's, like, it would be so stressful to even try to do that. You don't even need to do that. Just communicate.
Heather: You know how many people don't?
Monica: So bad. Oh, my gosh. I can't believe that you also have trouble getting ahold of prosecutors.
Heather: Yes.
Monica: No, I usually have — or they call you back at 7:00 at night.
Heather: Yeah. Depends on the prosecutor.
Monica: Yeah, it's true. And I usually am very annoying. I'm like, get me on their calendar — to anybody I can get ahold of. Like, thank you. I one time just started — well, whatever. I ended up calling, like, 'cause their number's 561-355-7100, and then the last two numbers change. So I called, couldn't get ahold of the prosecutor. The number I had on file, it was another prosecutor who was already in their office. I start just dialing 355-71, I don't know, 01, 02. I get ahold of, like, a serious prosecutor, like, top, top of the office.
Heather: Nice.
Monica: And she's like — I'm like, sorry, I had no idea, which is true, of course. I had no idea I was calling you. But I was trying to get ahold of this person, so she's like, oh, it's okay. And she's, like, helping me find — she gives me their direct line. I was like, I am always doing this.
Heather: Nice. Or just call her. Just go to her boss from then on.
Monica: Oh my God, that would be so annoying. Not that I'm saying that other attorneys' time is more valuable than theirs, but I was just, like, not expecting to get, like, the most serious prosecutor in that office on the phone. I was like, oops. My bad. But I got directly to where I needed to go. I was like, thank you so much. So it worked out.
What Clients Get Wrong
Monica: How are we on time?
Brandon: Forty-nine.
Heather: Oh, wow. Very nice.
Monica: Should we — do you guys have anything else you wanna talk about? Did we go through all of this already?
Heather: We went through a lot of different things. Oh my gosh. The first episode was, like, 70 minutes.
Brandon: Was it really?
Heather: Yeah. We got a lot in. The three of us can chat about this stuff. There's a lot to talk about. Imagine if we were drinking.
Monica: That would be fun. Part 3.
Heather: Part 8. What clients get wrong.
Brandon: That is a good one.
Heather: Oh my gosh.
Monica: All the time. You wanna talk about that?
Heather: Yeah, let's talk about it. Okay, so what clients get wrong, they automatically think that they know more than you. Because they know their marriage or they know the background, and they think that because they know more than you, that they're gonna be able to explain it better, that they're gonna have all the information. That they think that they brought you all the information. I don't know how many times clients call me and they're like, oh, no, I gave you that. No, you didn't. I gave you that statement. No, you gave me a screenshot. I gave you that statement. No, you gave me a transaction history. Ugh.
Monica: Oh my God.
Heather: Like, it's super frustrating because they just don't, like we talked about earlier, they just don't know what they don't know kinda thing. But oh my God, clients don't understand what you can and cannot do until it's explained with such thoroughness to be like, hey, there's that injunction in place. This is a good one for you guys. Injunction goes in place. No contact order is issued. You're not allowed to call your kids. What do you do? They're gonna violate.
Brandon: Yeah. Those are the first people who violate that no contact order.
Heather: Now it's up to the other person whether or not they're gonna prosecute it or not, right? Like, I just had this happen in another case, and it's like, oh my God, my client — now, I took it on, like, way after this happened, but she basically, like, got arrested in the middle of the night, and what does she do in the middle of the night? Called her husband. I wanna tuck the kids into bed. Violated. Add another time onto your sentence.
Monica: Oh my God. It's totally ridiculous. Did she call from the jail call?
Heather: Yes.
Monica: Oh, and it's recorded, too.
Heather: Yes, it was recorded. Like, it happened so fast. Like, she did, like, back-to-back first appearances.
Monica: Like, of all the phones. Like, please. Don't do it from the jail call.
Brandon: Oh my gosh.
Heather: Do they usually make statements in their criminal cases that are used in their family cases?
Brandon: Not usually.
Monica: It's usually probably the opposite.
Heather: Yeah, it's the opposite. They say stuff in family court 'cause they think that they're — they try to present themselves so good, but they also get really triggered so fast.
Monica: Yeah, that's the thing, because the other party can get under their skin really easily.
Heather: That's where it's fun for us. They're like, yes. Oh my God, they mess up so fast. I see that in injunctions all the time. It's like you start asking questions, and it's like you get these people so furious. And you're just like, wow, someone's testy.
Monica: Yeah.
Heather: That comes into preparation for your client, too. Like, if they're actually prepared versus they think that they're prepared.
Brandon: One of the things that I give as advice to clients all the time when they have to give any sort of testimony is treat the lawyers the same, meaning treat me the same when I'm asking you questions as you're gonna treat the opposing counsel. Because I think it's so obvious, certainly to a jury and I think to a judge also, it is so obvious if somebody is acting differently to the other lawyer. That is the character that I think they actually have. So what I mean by that is if I get up and I do a direct examination of my client, I'm asking them questions, but they're all very pleasant, very nice, everything is cordial. The other person gets up and they're squirrely. They're dodging the questions. Or maybe, that's not what I meant, or that's not what I said, or they're being combative. And I think that the other lawyer is pulling out the real version of them, and I think that a jury or a judge looks at that and says, that's the person. That's the one with the anger problem. That's the person that's got the attitude. That's really who they are. The other thing that they were doing just now with their lawyer was all an act, and now I can see they're acting, and that's a huge deal.
Monica: Every domestic trial I have cross-examined a witness that has lost their shit. What I say on closing argument is, like, that's my whole closing. It's like that is who they are. Like, if that's who they are on the witness stand when I'm asking them questions, imagine what happened on that day. That's exactly right. I think every — it's like when you're triggered every time. And it works. It literally works every single time because you are really showing your true colors, like you're saying.
Brandon: I don't think enough — certainly in our line of work, I don't think enough prosecutors teach the witnesses to behave that way.
Heather: No.
Brandon: I think they just try to, you know, give them the golden rule.
Monica: It's damage control at that point.
Brandon: Oh, just be honest, you know, whatever, but they don't say to them, look, the other person that's gonna get up and ask you questions after me, you need to treat them the same way. You can't start reacting negatively to them because that's how you're going to be judged by everybody that's watching this. And cases fall apart that way.
Heather: I'm sure you see people — ugh, they need to be trained to answer the question first. That is the worst thing, and that pisses off the family law judges more than anything in the world. Because remember, they know more than you do.
Monica: Of course, so they have to give background information that's, like, not even —
Heather: Oh, I can't answer that question the way that you asked it. So I'm just gonna tell you da, da, da, da, da. And then the judge looks over and is like, answer the question.
Brandon: That's exactly right.
Heather: Pisses off everybody.
Monica: Yeah, because they're basically sustaining their — the question. Like, it's like, no. Yeah, but then you see their ego comes out. And now you see, like, who really thinks that they know what they're doing. Their narrative is more important than whatever is going on.
Heather: They have to tell their version of the story.
Monica: They have to be heard.
Heather: Yeah. That need to feel heard is usually what buries them.
Monica: I agree with that. That's so true. You see that all the time.
Heather: But on a good cross-examination, so we'll take their deposition first, and then I'll take that deposition transcript, and I will turn that into my cross-examination —
Brandon: Yes.
Monica: Yeah, of course. Immediately.
Heather: And it's just straight impeachment. If you don't impeach a client that way, then, like, you're just wasting your time.
Brandon: No, that's trial attorney 101, baby.
Monica: That's exactly how you're gonna do it. Yeah, but you know how many people don't do it?
Heather: I mean, you guys are taught it in criminal law.
Monica: Yeah, we have to be.
Heather: But there's a lot of family law attorneys that don't do that.
Monica: No, that's all I would do.
Heather: Really scary.
Monica: Depo transcripts are the best for that. There's a lot of attorneys within family law, but I find — I don't wanna say a lot of family lawyers — but, like, most criminal lawyers are litigators, right?
Heather: Yeah, we have to be.
Monica: Right. And family law is litigation. But why is it that I feel like when I do go into injunction hearing sometimes, my opposing counsel lacks some, like — basic knowledge that I'm like, you are supposed to be practicing for a certain amount of time. You should know this stuff. But clearly they're like — I'm sorry. I thought you were gonna be better at your job.
Heather: Yeah. They're not trained. They're not trained.
Monica: Is that a thing in family law, though?
Heather: It is. There's a lot of attorneys in family law who just don't know how to do it because they're not trained. They haven't gone to court to go watch. I mean, I tell little baby lawyers all the time, like, go watch on purpose because you've gotta be able to see how that hearing runs before you do it yourself. There's no way I ever went into any kind of hearing before I had watched one live. I don't care how many billable hours you lose. You just go back and figure it out later. But, like, oh my God — even admitting evidence, you walk in with no idea. Like, when you're asking your client for, like, financials and stuff, how are you gonna get over the business record exception or whatever? Like, however you're gonna get it in, you need to know the rules of evidence. To prove your case.
Brandon: That was a huge benefit of working for the state, and I know working for the PD, is getting to go watch your colleagues and learn that way by watching different types of trials, different types of motions, different types of hearings, jury selections. You learn so much, and you can just, like, steal different tips and tricks and things to do and not to do from the other lawyers. That's a huge perk of being in that job.
Heather: Yeah. I feel bad for the judges because think about how many of the members of our judiciary actually came from the state attorney or the public defender. Most of them. Right? Or practiced criminal. Most of them. Now, put them in family court and deal with people who may not know how to put in evidence.
Monica: I can think of, like, a bunch of judges, and they get pissed.
Heather: They walk you backward.
Monica: They call you out. They test you. And, you know, half the time it's just preparation is key in family court. But there's a lot of attorneys who just don't know how to put on evidence.
Brandon: I would say preparation is key in litigation, period. Like, just being an attorney in the courtroom, that is it.
Monica: It's a huge part of it. That's a really good point, actually.
Heather: Except there's one family law attorney who just, like, literally will walk into a courtroom with no pad, no pen. It's like a running joke. And he is always extremely prepared, and everyone underestimates him.
Monica: That's so not us.
Heather: He can win.
Brandon: I know there's a guy that I went against in a couple of injunctions that meets that description.
Monica: I'll ask you when we're not recording if it's the same person.
Heather: I'll tell you who it is.
Monica: But, yeah, this guy came, like, with no paper, no pen, no nothing. Like, I gave him a copy of the injunction, 'cause I was representing the petitioner, and I gave him a copy of the injunction. Was like — anything else?
Heather: I guarantee we're talking about the same person.
Brandon: I guess it is.
Monica: Yeah, it's him.
Heather: Yeah. That's pretty cool, though. But it's epic to see that guy go.
Monica: Yeah, exactly. Yeah, it's super fun. That's really — 'cause, like, honestly, I don't know if I — I'm grateful for my experience. I hope to have more. I don't know if I'll ever reach that level, but to be there, that's cool, to just, like, walk in —
Heather: I don't know that anybody's gonna reach that level.
Monica: And try your case without a paper or anything. I'd be like, sometimes I need to remember my client's name. No, I'm just kidding.
Heather: That's bad.
Brandon: You had too many cases. Who am I representing today in court?
Monica: Oh, God. What do you call, John Jack? No, that was when I was at the public defender's office.
Brandon: Yeah, that makes sense.
Monica: Too many. 'Cause you have a big old list. That's literally what it was, just a list of names, and then we would just go to court. Figure it out.
Heather: I hear you. I don't know how you guys do that.
Monica: Yeah, it's weird. It's a little acid.
Rapid Fire
Monica: So we have some rapid fire questions for you guys.
Heather: Let's do it.
Brandon: All right. Let's do some rapid fire questions.
Monica: Here we go. I will start. Go for it. Which one do I like? I know 'cause you probably crossed off your fun ones. Okay. Hmm, harder to handle, an emotional client or a client who says nothing?
Heather: Emotional. Okay. A thousand times over, emotional clients because they cannot see reason.
Monica: That's true.
Heather: So one of the things — that's a good answer. So you're trying to reason with someone who is completely unreasonable, cannot see the wisdom of what you're trying to tell them. So they are just fighting tooth and nail with every ounce of their emotional, like, everything in their body, and they don't care. They don't think about money. They don't think about how much they're spending. They don't think about who they're hurting along the way, and they are desperate. Desperate. Those emotional clients. It is super frustrating. And then you've got the clients who, like, just really don't wanna get divorced, and then it's all, oh my God, it's so much harder to —
Monica: It's like pulling teeth.
Heather: Pull them along. It's the little kid in the red wagon who keeps jumping out. That's the emotional client.
Monica: I sent you one of those recently.
Heather: You did, thanks. I literally was like, oh, no. Good luck. But — oh, God, yep, you know? That's just how it is.
Monica: What is the biggest this-is-going-to-backfire moment that you see coming for clients? So, like, what is something that clients do where you're like, oh, this is not gonna work out for you well?
Heather: Oh, shit. I don't know. You might have to skip that one.
Brandon: I feel like if we get — backfiring example. I feel like that happens in our criminal court more in criminal court all the time when I'll tell a client, don't do this, and then they do it. And then it's like, well, that's —
Heather: That was — I told you that was a bad idea.
Brandon: I told you that was a bad idea.
Heather: And then they call you with the mess to fix it. I try not to tell my clients, I told you so, so often, just because it's like it's just gonna piss them off.
Monica: I know.
Heather: So when I have that backfire moment, I just look at them and say like, okay. I told you I can fix anything, except — well, not anything. I tell them, look, if you're testifying, I can go back and fix what you did unless you really fuck up, and then, like, you're screwed. I'm gonna tell you what not to say. But there are those moments where you're just like, okay, just, just answer the question, 'cause I can't fix your behavior. So when you see their face starting to turn red and you're like, Your Honor, I think it's time for a bathroom break.
Monica: For a little break.
Heather: Yeah, a little break. Oh, yeah. No, when they start talking about domestic violence, that kinda stuff, I usually get scared. They're about to go off the rails probably.
Monica: Okay. One thing every parent should remember before involving the courts.
Heather: Ooh, that's a good one. That the judge reads everything.
Monica: Ooh, that's good.
Brandon: That's good advice.
Heather: Because people get into, like, these rage texting. And then they can't stop. We call it, like, doom scrolling. It's the same kinda thing. Imagine me doom scrolling through your text chain with your ex, and you think that you were right the whole time because, you know, you've got this ego. You've gotta actually just get it all out. Right? So they get it all out, and then they realize when you read it back, you're like, wow, you were a bitch.
Monica: Yeah. When I tell my clients, like, I can't use any of this, they get really angry. So, like, think before you —
Heather: None of these messages make you look good at all.
Monica: Right. Like, think before you hit send.
Heather: What do you mean? Oh, and you know what's hard, is they — if they don't see that the intact marriage isn't actually intact anymore and they just keep on going and going and going, their spouse is, like, baiting them to say all the wrong shit. So if you actually, like, aren't having sex with your spouse for, I don't know, more than 30 days, like, something's off in your relationship. And then from there you can just kind of expect you should probably be a little careful.
Heather: It's the social media. It's the texting. When you air all of your dirty laundry for everyone to see and you don't realize that you're being judged. I mean, like, how many times have you told your clients, you know, I don't want you posting on social media. I don't want you posting on Facebook. Like, stop texting, stop posting. Stop reacting to certain things. I don't even want you to like something on social media.
Brandon: Yeah. And then you think about it like this. That cop is gonna go investigate that person. They're gonna go where? Facebook.
Heather: Social media, right. Exactly. So what happens to us is I can download your entire social media background, and if you deleted something, I can ask you why you deleted it. And if you tell me that your lawyer told you to delete it, now you're even in more trouble.
Monica: Yeah, looks bad. That lawyer's in a lot of trouble too.
Heather: Yeah. But, like, it's just, it's crazy. The shit that I have seen in text message —
Brandon: Do people actually blame their lawyers?
Heather: Oh, all the time.
Monica: All the time. I would be so mad.
Heather: Well, they blame the lawyer —
Brandon: I'd be looking at the judge being like, no.
Heather: They blame their lawyers to each other. They're like, oh, my lawyer told me to do that, right?
Brandon: I tell my clients all the time, I'm like, uh, that was attorney-client privilege. Like, please don't. Don't say that.
Brandon: I like when my clients try to threaten that I'm gonna do something. Like, oh, my lawyer is gonna handle this, and it's like, I am that guy.
Heather: Right.
Brandon: They're like, yeah, that's me. I am the one that's gonna — let's everybody pump the fucking brakes, okay? Like, I'm not gonna do fucking anything right now.
Heather: Oh, I love it. Everybody pump the fucking brakes. When you go back to them you say, okay, pump the fucking brakes, but what exactly did you think I was gonna do?
Monica: Yeah, right. Like, what did you think I was gonna do? That's the question. My lawyer — wait till my lawyer hears about this.
Brandon: I'm him. I've heard.
Heather: I heard about it. This is not fictional. I'm not doing anything about it. That's ridiculous.
Brandon: This is not Suits.
Heather: Yeah, right. That shit does not happen that way.
Brandon: No, none of that shit works.
Heather: People love to say that, though.
Monica: They do. I told him to speak to my lawyer, and it's like, I know your lawyer, okay? We're not all fucking intimidated. Relax.
Brandon: Yeah, that's true. The first thing I tell my clients is, I love that you think that I am that controlling and that important.
Heather: Right, and I have that much power.
Brandon: That I have that much power, right? I walk in a room and there's a theme song playing.
Heather: Yeah. Like, I'm that guy.
Brandon: Like a baseball — like the baseball players. The walk-ups.
Monica: Yeah, exactly. What would be your theme song?
Heather: Ooh.
Brandon: That's a good one. That's a good question.
Monica: We are looking at each other. That is a good question.
Heather: Okay, so I'll tell you mine. That's hard. So when I was in college, my roommate, Katie, she's f-ing hilarious. Katie is now an optometrist, and Katie used to, like, every time we would go in for, like, a major test, she would run behind you, run around the entire house, singing the Rocky theme song and pumping her arms. Dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun. So now I have it in my head every time I walk in.
Monica: You're like, that's mine.
Heather: Like, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun. No, it's mine. I own it.
Brandon: That's amazing.
Monica: Oh, that's such a good question.
Brandon: That's a good one. We have to think of the answer to that.
Monica: Mine would definitely be, like, a wrestling intro 'cause I'm a big wrestling nerd, so that would be me. See you at Glacier. That would be my thing.
Brandon: I'm gonna be thinking about it till nighttime now.
Heather: Text me later.
Brandon: I'm gonna be playing different pump-up music on the way home, and be like, yeah, this is what I want. This is what I want people to think of.
Monica: Yeah. Do you wanna ask one more?
Brandon: No. I think we're good.
Monica: No, I'm just kidding. No, I'm sorry. She keeps making us go over time. Let's see. Um, just do one of these spicy ones.
Heather: Does it have a spicy margarita with it?
Monica: Oh, spicy. I like how we have a category called spicy questions. All right, let's see. Let's try this one. If you could ban one piece of advice that people get from friends or the internet, what would it be?
Heather: Ban advice. I mean, can I just ban all of their friend's advice, period? Like, here's part of the problem, is when you come into a family law attorney's office, they're like, oh, well, my friend had this happen in their case, and then I have to unravel everything that was said, right? But at the same time, I have to tell them that they have to lean on their support system. So whatever that support system actually means to them, they just have to take it with a grain of salt, and come to me, and ask me if that's good advice before they run with it.
Heather: 'Cause the problem that I see is like, okay, well, my friend told me to do X, Y, and Z. Yeah, that was really bad advice. Yeah, my friend told me to steal all my money from my ex-husband and —
Monica: Oh, take all the money out of the accounts.
Heather: Take all the money out of the bank account. I hear that all the time. Yeah, that's one of 'em. Move all of the money, and I'm like, don't move all the money. Move half the money. Don't do that. Open up a separate bank account and then don't touch that shit.
Monica: Oh, my God. That is so bad.
Heather: And they're like, no, I'm gonna live off of it. I'm good. I'm fine. I'm like, oh, my —
Brandon: Do people actually take all the money?
Heather: Yeah. Oh, yeah. People get crazy.
Monica: That is so bad.
Heather: They'll have hundreds of thousands of dollars just to fuck with the other side.
Monica: Yeah, that's what I'm thinking. I'm like, that is so crazy. People can get, I mean, not arrested. I mean, I guess you can, but —
Heather: Get in trouble for that for sure. Yeah, but you can't get an injunction for money issues.
Monica: Yeah, exactly. So just go ahead. What are you gonna do?
Wrap-Up
Monica: All right. Thank you so much for joining us.
Heather: Thank you so much.
Monica: Today was so much fun.
Brandon: That was fun.
Monica: It was a great second episode.
Heather: It's always great with you guys.
Monica: Yeah, I would love to say that we're gonna do a third, but maybe down the line.
Heather: We're gonna hit the button. Maybe a year or two.
Brandon: We'll come up with something. There'll be an issue that crosses over again, and we'll do another episode.
Monica: That'd be fun. But in the meantime, if you liked listening to this show, make sure you like, comment, and subscribe. Give us a 5-star review, and make sure you subscribe to our weekly newsletter for all your gems. And if you didn't like listening to us —
Brandon: Come back with a warrant.